I am really unlucky (or Enworld martial artists help me part 2)...

First....thanx for all replies...they were very helpful....

LGodamus: Thanks for your trouble, I really, really appreciate it. The important part is that the school would have to be in the capital of Poland - Warsaw....other then that...all cool!!!

Of, yes....and could you give a chracteristic of Bujinkan Ninpo?? What is it like - jiujitsu, karate, kung fu??
 

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LGodamus: For someone who has said that he does not intend to be condescending, you seem, well, condescending.

You also sound a great deal like the other Ninjitsu, Taijitsu, Bujinkan, Ninpo, and Hoshinjitsu folks that I've talked to -- most of the time, they start off ragging on katas, like you did, move on to claim that any style with sparring is useless, and then declare that (whatever your style is named this week) is superior because there are no rules. Man, how I loved being trapped at that party, mistakenly having asked the Hoshin-ninpo-tajitsu-bujinkanist to tell me about his art, only to receive a lecture where he smugly declared that all other martial arts were stupid and silly, and that only by embracing the lawless chaos of combat could you really survive. The pinhead also neglected to ask me if I'd had any martial arts training, and then proceeded to get irritable when I pointed out the logical contradictions of his statements.

Essentially, you're whipping out your ninja-to and unleashing a vicious can of ninja-fu on a straw man you've created. Some schools have indeed turned katas into pure art forms that get practiced to music and done in really pretty costumes with extra flips and stuff thrown in. I don't think anyone is going to suggest that those katas are street effective. There are also schools that practice sparring exclusively for tournaments, with an emphasis on point fighting and little tricks about making your sparring pads snap when you punch so that it sounds cooler and gets the judges attention. Again, nobody is seriously putting these schools forward as viable street defense contenders.

Katas are not designed to be street-effective any more than pushups are designed to be street-effective, so stop attacking them as though they claim to be such. At a well-rounded school, a kata serves as a way to get the student to practice his stuff as part of a series of techniques with transitional steps between them. The katas might start off as simple block-and-strike combinations that give the beginner something to work with, and move into becoming a collection of full-fledged techniques, any individual one of which would work on the street. To attack the entirety of a kata as not being street effective is like making fun of someone for practicing all of the blocks or parries on their material sheet in order because "No one would attack you with that many punches in succession ON THE STREET!" That's silly, and it misrepresents katas.

By the same token, sparring ain't street-fighting, but it can teach valuable skills. It's a good way to teach students how to NOT telegraph their strikes. It's a good way to teach students how to take a strike and not fall down or go into shock (if you practice in a medium or heavy-contact school and don't stop each time a "point" is scored). It's a good way to teach timing, and it's a good reality check, as the student learns that the stuff that works so well for them when practicing with a dummy doesn't work quite as well when the attacker doesn't know that he's supposed to fall forward and get tripped.

A good school should use a combination of training methods -- these training methods may include:

- Simple repetitions of techniques, combinations, individual strikes, blocks, or kicks -- can be in the open air or on pads or bags

- Katas, which are formalized collections of the above

- Partner training, with a variety of partners, so that the practitioner learns how to make a technique actually work -- and this can include choreographed techniques or spontaneous "Defend against this attack" stuff. When traded back and forth, this also teaches the practitioner how to dummy, which is a great way to minimize the impact of strikes that might otherwise flatten you.

- Sparring, to teach timing and give them a better feel for how fast actual combat is when you don't know what the attacker is going to do

- Contingency training, so that students learn to adapt their techniques in order to deal with an attacker who doesn't react as anticipated. This is best handled as a subset of partner training.

I have no objection to someone saying that their school, or even their system, doesn't use a particular practice method -- heck, there are probably a bunch of methods I left out -- but to declare that there is no value to katas or sparring shows you to be somewhat ignorant and fairly close-minded.

Note: I'm assuming in this that you understand that katas can be made up of either combinations (kick, punch, step, punch, chop) or techniques (catch the punch, break the arm, backfist to the ribs, takedown, stomp to the spine, break the neck, and then call it "Slaying the Dragon"). I'm assuming that you are attacking katas as such, and that you are not attacking the idea of techniques or combinations. Please correct me if I'm mistaken, and you ARE in fact attacking the idea of techniques.

-Tacky
 

Another interesting bit of advice on a subject I love.

I will only say this this time....
Check out the schools and if you like it then it will be right for you.

Bujinkan is like any other martial art in that it is only as good as the teacher teaching it. You must do the work to get the benefit. The basic idea taught is get out of the way when someone attacks you and then if possible attack back and end the fight as quickly as possible.

Zd I am sorry to hear you lost a good teacher.

Drakmar and Tacky..I agree with you again. Nice post.
LG I see what your saying and it is essentially on the right path. I have noticed that many in Bujinkan schools are rather political nowadays. This I find odd but not unique. Not that anything you posted was particlarly political.

Koryu is any art steeped in old traditions and is practiced as it was practiced in the old days. (Basic) Ko =Old Ryu= school or tradition
I have posted many links on a past thread or two on this subject.
Good luck on picking a good school again,
I would stay away from the judo school as that will not be what your looking for at this time ZD I think you know my thoughts on that.
Later,
Darius
 

Takyris, you are getting a little too personal and I think you need to calm down . If I sound condescending to you it is because you are wanting it to; not because that is how I am trying to be. I am not ragging on katas, but what I am saying about kata and sparring is this, plain and simple ........repetition of a technique sets it to muscle memory......Kata as in the long showy ones,not the ones using actual tecnique, set these ineffecient and unoptimized techniques and root them into your marital style that you develop from the time you start practicing your art. Same with sparring.....it has rules and the longer you practice sparring with rules you are training to handicap yourself.....whether you know it or not, you will unconciously shy away from techniques not legal in sparring, even if they are needed in real combat. ...............Takyris , you are taking my words completely out of context , and I wish you would not . I never said anything about other arts being silly or usless , and neither did I say anything about embracing chaos or anyother such nonsense you are accusing me of.

The only person being condescending is you ...with your junk about whippin out ninja to and ninja fu....and all that crap you are saying....

You say that people like me are "pinheads" as you put it, which is to imply that I dont know what I am talking about...... then you go on to say all sorts of things about how sparring and kata prepare you for real combat......if you had read my above comments at all you will see that I have experience with arts that do kata and sparring , and I have experience on the street as well, and there really isnt much correlation. Just because you can take a punch in the head sparring in protective gear doesnt mean that is gonna help you take a bare knuckle blow to your face......Its not gonna help.
I really , take exeption to calling me ignorant and close minded , when I have in fact done all of the methods you have suggested and was merely offering my opinion on them. Furthermore, I,unlike yourself, wasnt attacking anything. I was merely pointing out some facts and offering a few opionions based on personal experience . With that in mind I must object to your personal attack on me. It shows bad taste on your part. I am not trying to be mean to anyone here , and I expect the same common courtesy....
 

I also very much agree with what Synicism said.
Remember there is no end all be all Martial Art. It is an art form this means there is a great intrepretation to the each style. All of them have benefits and All of them have their quirks.
Darius
 

Over the past several years, I've had the opportunity to play quite a bit of Street Fighter 2, as well as watch undisputed masters compete in the local arcade. My advice would be for you to begin training in the martial art practiced by Blanka. It's a simple yet powerful form, and the ability to generate electricity from your bare torso is sure to be a valuable asset in any street fight.
 

Yeah.. Blanka's style is pretty impressive... I have been trying to get that electric shock thing going for past couple of years.. must be because I am learning it from a book and not the master himself. :D

Seriously though.. I personally believe that a martial art can be recent (made within the past 100- 150 years) and still be relevant. The main ones I can think of off the top of my head are Aikido and Jeet Kune Do. Now both of those martial arts are effective combat styles.

The other thing reason why I believe that these styles are useful in today, especially styles like Aikido, is that they are definately NOT a lethal style. I don't see why an average person needs to be able to kill with their hands.. disable yes, defend yes.. kill.. No.

But.. as I believe I and many others have iterated it is not the style itself that makes a good street fighter, it is the person doing the MA combined with other things like their Instructor. One of the major things that I feel makes you good at a MA is that you actually LIKE and ENJOY the one you are doing.. I have tried Tong Long.. I sorta like it.. and if I couldn't do Hung Gar, I would do Tong Long... but it wouldn't be the same to me.

My sifu in Hung Gar teaches me in a fairly traditional way very similar to the way he learnt in Hong Kong.. at his own home, and the only way I got to train with him was by introduction of a friend of my sister's etc.. He was explaining to me that one of the major reasons that Hung Gar and many other Kung Fu styles maintain Forms/Kata's etc is not to set a series of moves into your muscle memory. According to my sifu it is so that past masters of the art could put a particular move into the set so that it is not forgotten, but did not have to teach the move per se to a student who they thought was not ready for it.. and after many years with or without the master they may finally understand why that move was in the form. This is one of the reasons why he believes that it is extremely important to NOT CHANGE a form that has lasted generations.

Mind you, I don't actually study Hung Gar to be an effective street fighter.. I don't have a need to fight on the streets and I avoid locations/situations that would require me to. Plus Brisbane, Australia is a pretty safe place overall. I study it Hung Gar because of the tradition, the history, and the way that it feels when I do the MA.. Hung Gar feels powerful.. I like that.

LGodamus, your initial comments were to me, slighty knocking other styles apart from your own. This is quite probably because this is a written medium and meaning can easily be misread. And I agree with you LGodamus, Takyris, your response was a bit of a knee jerk reaction the way I read it.

I believe I have been involved in the 3 major threads that ENB has had on MAs.. I feel that it is important to respect each others personal taste in MAs.. and also respect that different people might have different goals that they want to achieve through them.

and.. as to the original query.. zdanboy. The way I see it is that you will need to personally inspect each of the different MAs in your area, and make an informed decision.. Only you know why you want to do a MA.. therefore only you will truly be able to determine if a Style and Teacher are suited to you. Good Luck.
 
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Tewligan said:
Over the past several years, I've had the opportunity to play quite a bit of Street Fighter 2, as well as watch undisputed masters compete in the local arcade. My advice would be for you to begin training in the martial art practiced by Blanka. It's a simple yet powerful form, and the ability to generate electricity from your bare torso is sure to be a valuable asset in any street fight.

CLASSIC.

Also, if you can get in a soul charge or two before going for an air combo, you're 99% likely to win before they hit the ground.
 

i've been taking martial arts for a few years, off and on, but i am by no means an expert. i was a bit reluctant to reply to this thread, although i am a very big fan of martial arts in general. i've noticed that this tends to be a touchy subject among people who are "in the know". i normally see such discussions end up in a debate of "my style is better than your style." in my opinion, when you get a bunch of guys together and they start talking about martial arts, there always comes the debate of style superiority.

however, i am impressed at the civility within this thread and although the topic has come up, i see no intent to be condescending or elitist. in regards to one martial being better than other, i feel that is a very valid opinion, but by no means a fact.

my own opinion of martial arts, from what i have experienced and witnessed, is that no one particular style is superior to any other style. i believe that a martial art is only as good as you want it to be. if you are dedicated and disciplined enough, you can make an system work for you.

this may sound a bit flippant, but what is the chance of actually getting into a "street fight" unless you either bring it upon yourself, go looking for one, or are just having a very bad day?

and following that vein of thought, if you do get into an actual fight, what is the chance of your attacker actually knowing a particular martial art style (although it is always safe to assume that your opponent may be better than you)?

i truly believe that no martial art is better or superior to another. i believe it all comes down to whether or not you have trained harder and are more skilled than your opponent.
 

Skill is important. Technique for techniques sake will get you killed or at the very least hurt unless your very lucky.
Street fighting is a mix of survival and using what you have learned in an intelligent way. Sometimes you must lose a fight or two before you learn that. Blindly going into any fight, be it street or sanctioned event, is not a smart way to do anything.

Experience is the best master and the hardest teacher.

When we asked Sensei what the most powerful weapon in the dojo was he responded with a smile and pointed to the newest student.

That which is unexpected is the best weapon. If you learn to play by rules, those rules can be used against you. I think that is something you guys have been trying to say in your own way you just complicated it a little.

I can even equate rules as being Kata in some styles. There are people who missed the point of why Kata are there and what purpose they serve. Kata was created to tech beginers a style. Kata later became a way to create a foundatuion on which you can better build your skills when you are not in class. Kata or forms were also used to hide many techniques and it took a teacher to interpret what knowledge you already had. I believe these basic thoughts were already stated earlier in this thread...good work again guys.

The history of all Martial Ways is facinating and can fill many many volumes indeed. In china there are well over 2500 seperate family styles. These styles are similar but at the same time quite distinguishable from each other.
People like to put their thumb print on things and that is part of why there are so many different styles. Adaptablility is another reason.
The debate about what style is better is a fools errand. What do I mean by that? Well all styles are good and have something good within them. There are no styles themselves which are better or worse than others. They are just styles, like paintings there are a thousand different ways to create the same thing, It is the artist that really makes the difference.

My advice, as it has been for the last three threads, is to examine each school and make a decision based on what you want to get out of the class. All martial arts will teach you to defend yourself, eventually. I am glad you found a style you liked you just had some bad luck is all. Is there a way you and maybe one or two other students from your old school could still train together? That may be beneficial and a way to Honor your teacher in some small way.

I have rambled way to much once again,
Later,
Darius

P.S. Remember there is always someone out there bigger and badder than yourself. If you look for a reputation of some sort there will be people willing to take you on for the prestige of beating or at the very least just fighting against you. Never underestimate an opponent...
:D
 
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