[OT] Yet another martial arts help thread.....so, please help!!

[Pazu]

Re: Re: Re: *snicker*

Depends on the leisure activity. My original questions was why it seemed that so many individuals over the age of 20 who also practice martial arts seem also to have been in a fight after that age. This observation prompted me to suggest that there may be some better ways of spending time.

I don't remember any questions being asked; I remember proclamations about "wasting time learning how to hurt people" and "inviting violence into your life". In any event, do you have any evidence to suggest that the percentage of folks who study martial arts and get in fights over the age of 20 is any higher than the percentage of non-martial artists who get in fights over the age of 20? This sounds like the level of reasoning that leads to the "D&D causes teen suicide" or "videogames cause teen violence" ideas.

This is fallacious and does not even address properly the paragraph quoted. Saying that some "well-educated" people are having some difficulty finding work does not change the fact that being better educated will make the job hunting process less difficult.

What exactly is fallacious in this statement? Are you trying to say that there are not well-educated people unable to find work in the Bay Area? The simple fact is that if there are no jobs, there are no jobs. Just because someone is highly educated does not create jobs where none exist, nor does it give one the power to displace someone already working.

Nevertheless, your original point was to advise someone to spend time gaining more education so they could get a better job for better wages (and, by extension, move to a better neighborhood). This is not equivalent to saying that someone with more education has a better shot at getting a higher-paying job than someone who doesn't, as the former presents the association as fait accompli, and is thus overly simplistic.

Im not exactly trying to submit my findings to an academic journal.

Probably for the best.

-- Pazu

 

[Darius101]

 

[Pazu]

Thanks for posting ....very intersting points Pazu.

Darius

Hi Darius!

I suppose I should provide some personal context since I butted into this thread.

I have studied choy li fut kung fu for...well, I can't remember how many years, and since my birthday was yesterday, I probably subconsciously don't want to know. When I was much younger, I took some isshinryu karate.

Back then, you could say I learned martial arts for all the stereotypical reasons. I was one of the only Asian kids in a predominantly white neighborhood, I was/am a big nerd, I was/am no good at sports at all. Thus, I got picked on. So I decided to take some karate classes, figuring, okay, I'll show those bullies what's what. So how many fights did I get in (before the age of 20)?

0.

Now we flash-forward an undefined number of years. My fiancee and I had moved to San Francisco, and I was feeling a little blobby and out-of-shape. So we thought, okay, what kind of regular exercise might be fun? Running? Bleah (ran track in high school and hated it). Biking? In the Bay Area, the natural habitat of the psychopathic SUV driver? 24-hour Nautilus? Boring. But hey, look, there's martial arts schools all over the place, why don't we find one near us and see what it's like? And the rest is history. So how many fights did I get in (over the age of 20)?

0.

Now, it has been pointed out that when you live in San Francisco (as with any other city), circumstances may require you be in less-than-savory areas. In those places, knowing how to defend yourself may well be useful. But that's not really why I got into it. Truth is, I enjoy the activity, I like the teacher, I like my fellow students, and I think it's neat to be studying forms that have been passed down from generation to generation and crossed an ocean. It's humbling to find yourself as just a tiny part of such a grand tradition.

In case Lannon is reading this, that is what I meant by "cultural".

And for the record, I am a western-trained physician, and I am not particularly dismissive of eastern medical traditions. Here in the Bay Area, practitioners of both seem to have reached a certain rapprochement. Most Chinese physicians would never advise a patient to forego surgery to remove a malignant tumor, and many western physicians wouldn't argue with the possibility that ch'i gung and acupressure might help folks recover faster after the surgery.

-- Pazu
(went on much longer than he meant to)

 

[Pazu]

I'm still trying to figure out what the correlation of me having a B.A. Anthropology and a funny colored belt have to do with each other...what was the "education" portion of this discussion again?

Lannon's silly assertion that the way to avoid ever being in a dangerous environment is to get more education, get a better job, and move out of the bad neighborhood. Presto! You got your white-collar job, your house with a white picket fence (that you leave unlocked at night, of course), 2.3 kids and a dog, and no need to learn martial arts! All for the low, low price of "getting more education".

-- Pazu

 

[Lannon]

not exactly what I said now is it.

Lannon's silly assertion that the way to avoid ever being in a dangerous environment is to get more education, get a better job, and move out of the bad neighborhood. Presto! You got your white-collar job, your house with a white picket fence (that you leave unlocked at night, of course), 2.3 kids and a dog, and no need to learn martial arts! All for the low, low price of "getting more education".

-- Pazu

There wasnt an assertion of anything along these lines. I said that raising your level of education makes it more *likely* that you will earn a better wage and less *likely* that you will be involved in a violent encounter. As a physician you should be well versed in probability and statistics. There is a significant difference between saying something *will* happen and that something is *more likely* to happen.

 

[Lannon]

philosophy

Did I ever say the mystical practices of the martial traditions were embraced by western science?? I do not believe I did. I also did not subtly suggest this either. I did however state that ideas of anatomy and the way the body works are being embraced as truth in a cultural exchange between the eastern and western sciences. I did use different wording and perhaps that is where you got confused.

ugh. I suppose that is where I got confused. However, I am having some trouble figuring out what you mean by "ideas of anatomy and the way the body works are being embraced as truth in a cultural exchange between eastern and western sciences." If you are talking about doctors practicing western style medicine and submiitting their findings to journals then by all means I would agree with yoiu. However, I do not think that western scientits are looking to ancient martial arts to expand their knowledge of anatomy. What exactly do you mean by that statement?

Lannon you continue to twist things to your own way of thiniing rather accept things for what they are. The story of Musashi did not create a violent reaction from the snake it created a reaction of fear and the snake ran away. Musashi did not invite the snake to fight. A snake is a snake not anything else in that story. In fact it was specific snake ...a cobra. Again you did not read carefully enough before making a conclusion about something of which you have no experience.
You also know little of snakes as I stated in the story that Musashi knew any movement would cause the snake to attack. A snake is a reactionary being.

This is amazing. You really think that the snake is "just a snake," in that story. If that is the case then why does Musashi make such a strong generalization based on the encounter? It is Musashi that makes the generalization based on the snake. He is apart from the world now, because of his training in the martial arts, and wishes that was not so. The encounter with the snake is symbolic, in my reading, of exactly this disconnection.

I also noticed that you still avoided my comments about your casual observations.

I already stated that my observations were not strong evidence. Again, I made no attempt to pass off my observations as more than they were. These were my own thoughts based on some of the encounters I have had with MArtists. If you check the nature of my posts you will find this to be true.

You have tried to steer this dicussion to things that do not pertain to the original topic at all in any way, shape or form.

This is not true. You have steared this off course. I originally stated that education could be a viable alternative that may help you avoid violent conflict due to its affects on your wage earning potential. All of these things related to showing that education can do exactly what I have suggested is directly related to discussing my point.

I will admit that I have to some extent cotrolled what you were going to post by insiting particular comments from you...I aplogize for this but it was so easy to do I couldn't pass up the opertunity that you presented to me on a regular basis.

Then you are the one responsible for topic shift not me. If you were not interested in discussing the actual opinion I expressed you should have been honest enoiugh to say so and stopped responding.

 

[Greg K]

I am a late comer to this thread, I have done some martial arts training in the past, primarily Hwarang Do.

Boxing: Boxing probably some of the best body conditioning techniques (which is very important to a martial artist). You will defintely develop good hand speed and hand techniques, as well as body shifting, slip punches and read your opponents. The limited set of techniques and constant sparring will help you to become competent faster than most other styles. Others have mentioned the downside.

Thai-boxing: like boxing the conditioning techniques are excellent. You also get to use elbows and knee strikes.

Hwarang Do is not Tae Kwon Do has some people have mentioned. It is more like Korean Kungfu/aikijujitsu and like jujitsu the idea is whatever works. One of the leading instructors, before his death, taught at a U.S Special Forces training base and President Samosa's Black Berets in El Salvador. My first instructor had some Marines from Camp Pendleton as instructors while my second instructor taught several members from Los Angeles's C.R.A.S.H anti-gang unit prior to its being disolved.
From what I recall of white belt, there were 8 one man sets, 30 two man sets, 2 very short forms and breakfalls. The two man sets include hard and circular blocks, strikes/elbows/forearms, knees, kicks, joint lock/breaks, takedowns and breakfalls . Some of the hand strikes are closed fist, but most of the hand techniques are openhand (palm strikes, knifehand, claw strikes, and finger strikes) targeting eyes, throat, solar plexus, groin, temple, spine, etc. All the strikes, locks, and takedowns came off of various blocks/traps. A favorite defensive technique seems to be a block similar to a mantis or crane head to trap and either inititiate a joint lock (and then break it and/or take down the opponent) or to seize the opponent's outstretched arm and pull the opponent off balance and into your own strike.
After white belt, I was introduced to throws, double knife forms(initially utilizing palm strikes, knife/spearhands, and circular blocks and then one belt later with knifes) and sparring became more important. Unfortunately after two belts past white my trainining ended. My instructor's four year old daughter developed leukemia and classes became less frequent and he closed the school.
I do know that the style does include practical disarms, groundfighting, chokes, accupuncture/accupuncture (for nerve and pressure points combat and healing) as well as a lot of weaponry.
Now, going into this style, you should know that there was a big rift between between the main orgainzation of the Grandmaster and both several Americans (most of whom studied initially under the grandmaster's brother) and old Korean instructors . I know that when I studied with my first instructor we were making changes to various techniques on the syllabus. My second instructor said that those changes, which he did not teach, were designed to remove the more circular blocks especially (those used to enter and exit into stances) which are harder to learn, but important to develop to utilize certain techniques. Apparantely, the changes were made to develop an introductory style, Tae Soo Do, that was easier for people to learn and now serve as a prerequisite to learn Hwa Rang do According to my second instructor, several instructors did not approve of this change among other things and broke off. there has apparently been some animosity between the mainorgainizatin and these so called "renegades" and the official organization does not recognize them as instructors or, in some cases as having trained with them at all.

 

[PatMefford]

Can we please shift the subject back compareing our wangs and not trying to justify our hobbies to someone who doesn't care in the first place?


Thanks!

 

[Lannon]

Interesting. Lannon, would you be able to see if you can find statistics on "Fights involving Martial Artists" and statistics on "Fights that don't involve Martial Artists". That would be quite an interesting statistic to know. I don't know what the results would be... but my guess from my life experiences, there will probably be more fights out there involving people who haven't studied any martial art.

I doubt that I could find such statistics. This would require that somone willing to run the numbers was very interested in doing so. I would look at the statistics as presented as being particularly dubious even if they did exist. I do not know how you would get a proper random sample of martial artists.

Now.. you might say that this is a good example of why you don't need a martial art. Why a non-violent approach can work. I definately agree with you. But. I learnt this ability to control my fear and emotions from Martial Arts.

The bully does not matter. What matters is your behavior. I would state that this is a strong indication that this encounter could have been overcome without the Martial Arts training . I think there are other methods by which you can learn to control your fear and emotions.

 

[barsoomcore]

Re: Musashi

I have posted several opinions.

Forgive me for missing them.

I have meantioned more than once that ... by surrounding myself with violence and potentially violent people I may be inviting violence into my own life.

Why do you use the term "may be"? Surely either you are or you are not? Please speak frankly. Is it your opinion that by surrounding yourself with violence and potentially violent people you are inviting violence into your own life?

Because I happen to agree with that statement. I think it's self-evident. It seems, however, that what you are saying is that people who study martial arts are violent people. With this I disagree. The violent people I have met have not been students of martial arts. They have been, for the most part, angry insecure people full of fear and despair who can find no means of exerting control over their surroundings except through physical violence. I find these people in all walks of life.

I have found unequivocably that the study of martial arts leads people towards a peaceful nature. The masters I have met have invariably been serene, good-humoured people whose compassion and integrity I have not found matched in anyone else.

Yes. The best people in the world study martial arts. The kindest, smartest, most courageous people I know are all martial arts masters. I want to be like them. I want to be like Douglas Skoyles, a Koaikido sensei in Calgary who is also an Anglican pastor, a former instructor for the Canadian Army and an excellent writer. I want to be like the late Yoshio Sugino, who was venerated as a Living National Treasure by the Japanese government while alive and remains a potent and inspiring force in the world of traditional bushido to this day.

I know that I myself am smarter, kinder and more courageous because of my study of martial arts.

I don't get into more fights. I get into less fights, actually. I stop fights from developing because I am unfraid to step in and defuse potentially violent situations. I have acquired that confidence through martial arts. Because I know that I can handle myself, I am relaxed and able to allow others to relax around me.

I also study martial arts because swords are incredibly cool, and I like knowing how to use them.

I don't insist that other people study martial arts. I don't think that winning fights is the best alternative -- not having the fight in the first place is always better. I agree that education is crucial.

I do, however, believe that we should all seek to stretch ourselves and our capabilities. We should reach out and attempt things we don't know if we are capable of or not. Mentally, physically and emotionally. We should try climbing mountains, learning calculus and falling in love. Only by pushing ourselves and by placing ourselves in situations we don't know if we can get out of do we find out what we're really capable of.

Yes, it's risky. There's always the danger that we will fail, that we will fall prey to some vile influence or other (like, for example, violence). Without that danger, there's no point in the activity. You don't grow if you don't risk something.

So studying martial arts is valuable precisely because it forces us to risk succumbing to the attraction of easy violent solutions. Only by confronting that risk and NOT giving way to it do we find out if we can take the higher path, if we can make ourselves better people and thereby make the world a better place.

Because if we're not trying to make the world a better place then why are we here?

I'm not saying martial arts is the only way. I'm not giving it any special status. Sports are good, too. So is art, so is family, education, yada yada yada. We all follow whatever path attracts us most. And good for us.

But I would not turn away from a path just because it was risky.

Forgive me if I sound cheesy. You have said you do not believe in spirituality so perhaps you think all this "make the world a better place" is a load of hooey. Fair enough. Many people do.