[OT] Yet another martial arts help thread.....so, please help!!

[Pazu]

Re: *snicker*

I know I'm a latecomer to this thread, but I find some of the points raised very interesting...

Heh. I havnt been talking about "moves" in any way shape or form. I could not care less about your kata or your martial arts style. My point was that by joining a violent institution you may well be inviting violence into your life. I have not said anything about violence not ever being the "answer." You have fabricated that notion with your own mind. I have said that you are, perhaps unintentionally, inviting violence into your life and wasting a good deal of time training yourself to hurt other people. I happen to thiink that their are more constructive and beneficial ways to spend your time than training in the martial arts.

I don't really understand this line of reasoning, but then, I also don't necessarily hold with a lot of the justifications being offered either. Why not just say, "Because I enjoy it"? And on the other side, there are more constructive and beneficial ways to spend your time than learning ballroom dancing, playing basketball, going fishing, or even >gasp< gaming! Lannon, do you hold the same perspective on all leisure-time activities?

I dont believe two fights are necessarily a high number. I do think that being in fights when you are a person over 20 years old indicates that there is something wrong. My father and uncle have not been in a fight since their teenage years each of them is nearing sixty years old. If they can do it then so can anyone else. My suggestion would be to increase your level of education so that you might earn a decent wage and live in a safer community.

This statement is overly simplistic. Among other examples, anyone who experienced the dotcom bubble burst in the SF Bay Area knows that there are many well-educated people who can't find work.

We all have good friends. This is not a reasonable argument for the benefits of martial arts. Lots of things build character. I do not need to study martial arts to have all the benefits that you have described thus far (including the ability to avoid physical violence).

Then martial arts isn't for you. So what? If you're not interested, you're not interested. Personally, I have no interest in playing football, despite the physical benefits that doing so could provide. Is that a good reason for me to find a football newsgroup and proclaim that those players could really spend their time better?

I have not provided any evidence. Instead I have voiced an opinion based on some experience with individuals in the martial arts. Anecdotal evidence by its definition cannot be contrived.

Anecdotal evidence is also not particularly rigorous.

I do not have the time to waste on anything remotely "spiritual." I find the notion of spirituality to be a largely humorous topic and one that is entertainingly enough a large part of many martial artists vocabulary.

How about "cultural", then?

-- Pazu

 

[Darius101]

Thanks for posting ....very intersting points Pazu.

Darius

 

[Darius101]

Anecdotal Evidence
Entry: evidence
Function: noun
Definition: proof
Synonyms: affirmation, attestation, averment, cincher, clincher, clue, confirmation, corroboration, cue, data, declaration, demonstration, deposition, documentation, dope, goods, gospel, grabber, grounds, hold water, index, indication, indicia, info, manifestation, mark, sign, significant, smoking gun, substantiation, symptom, testament, testimonial, testimony, token, witness
Concept: information
Source: Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright © 2003 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

Entry: evidence
Function: verb
Definition: prove
Synonyms: attest, bespeak, betoken, confirm, connote, demonstrate, denote, designate, display, evince, exhibit, expose, illustrate, indicate, manifest, mark, ostend, proclaim, reveal, show, signify, testify to, witness
Antonyms: disprove, refute, confute
Concept: explanation
Source: Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright © 2003 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

I believe he was using it as "in a witness to", as a verb. But then I am not a english teacher.

an·ec·dot·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nk-dtl)
adj.
also an·ec·dot·ic (-dtk) or an·ec·dot·i·cal (--kl) Of, characterized by, or full of anecdotes.
Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis: “There are anecdotal reports of children poisoned by hot dogs roasted over a fire of the [oleander] stems” (C. Claiborne Ray).
ev·i·dence ( P ) Pronunciation Key (v-dns)
n.
A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weigh the evidence for and against a hypothesis.
Something indicative; an outward sign: evidence of grief on a mourner's face.
Law. The documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law.

tr.v. ev·i·denced, ev·i·denc·ing, ev·i·denc·es
To indicate clearly; exemplify or prove.
To support by testimony; attest.
Idiom:
in evidence

Plainly visible; to be seen: It was early, and few pedestrians were in evidence on the city streets.
Law As legal evidence: submitted the photograph in evidence.


con·trived ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kn-trvd)
adj.
Obviously planned or calculated; not spontaneous or natural; labored: a novel with a contrived ending.

Just for clarification...these are the definitions of the words he used lol . They speak for themselves.

Moderator if you feel this is inflamitory in any way please feel free to delete it. I did this for the benefit of those who e-mailed me the last few days.
Anecdotal Evidence is not contrived, however it is merely a casual observation of something. We know from Science and Psychology that casual observations normally lead to inconclusive evidence or incorrect assumptions about a subject that can later be disproven. I am not saying your opinion is wrong here I am just saying that it is your opinion based on something you have little experience with; where as I have had intimate working knowledge for well over 23yrs. The martial arts are now being shown to have been accurate in anatomy and other sciences for well over 2000 yrs now. Those old monks and practioners discovered secrets that modern science is just now looking at and confirming as reality. Many Wesern Doctors are looking to Eastern techniques of medicine that had there not been martial practioners there would be no techniques to look at. This is just a quick example.
Just because someone has an education does not mean they will make money. Look at the actual statistics..Education is a tool you can use to make money but it is not the "Only " tool in the tool box. To think it is, is to limit yourself. It is knowledge that is the tool that leads to success not education alone. Check to see how many of the Millionaires in the world have a college education.
Sorry to be on a soapbox this was bugging me for days for no apperant reason at all.
Thanks again for the fun thread Zdanboy,
Darius

P.S. We got a little off topic there for a sec. oops

 

[Lannon]

oh man....

I believe he was using it as "in a witness to", as a verb. But then I am not a english teacher.


Just for clarification...these are the definitions of the words he used lol . They speak for themselves.

Both words were used correctly. I do not think we were trying to get into a scientific discussion about the benefits of martial arts. Therefore, it should not have been necessary to use scientifically rigorous methods.

The martial arts are now being shown to have been accurate in anatomy and other sciences for well over 2000 yrs now. Those old monks and practioners discovered secrets that modern science is just now looking at and confirming as reality. Many Wesern Doctors are looking to Eastern techniques of medicine that had there not been martial practioners there would be no techniques to look at. This is just a quick example.

If you would like to see what doctors think of eastern techniques then you are perfectly welcome to go to this site.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

Just because someone has an education does not mean they will make money. Look at the actual statistics..Education is a tool you can use to make money but it is not the "Only " tool in the tool box. To think it is, is to limit yourself. It is knowledge that is the tool that leads to success not education alone. Check to see how many of the Millionaires in the world have a college education.
Sorry to be on a soapbox this was bugging me for days for no apperant reason at all.

It may not be the only tool in the box but it certainly is the most consistent one. If you would like to see a listing comparing the wage earning potential of average members of particular educational backgrounds you can go here:

http://www.stlcc.cc.mo.us/ccdocs/instres/item5.htm

This is a link that can be found by visiting the US Department of Labor website.

I hope you find these enlightening.

 

[Lannon]

Re: Re: *snicker*

I don't really understand this line of reasoning, but then, I also don't necessarily hold with a lot of the justifications being offered either. Why not just say, "Because I enjoy it"? And on the other side, there are more constructive and beneficial ways to spend your time than learning ballroom dancing, playing basketball, going fishing, or even >gasp< gaming! Lannon, do you hold the same perspective on all leisure-time activities?

Depends on the leisure activity. My original questions was why it seemed that so many individuals over the age of 20 who also practice martial arts seem also to have been in a fight after that age. This observation prompted me to suggest that there may be some better ways of spending time.

This statement is overly simplistic. Among other examples, anyone who experienced the dotcom bubble burst in the SF Bay Area knows that there are many well-educated people who can't find work.

This is fallacious and does not even address properly the paragraph quoted. Saying that some "well-educated" people are having some difficulty finding work does not change the fact that being better educated will make the job hunting process less difficult.

Anecdotal evidence is also not particularly rigorous.

Im not exactly trying to submit my findings to an academic journal.

 

[Lannon]

Re: Re: Good restraint?

You have absolutely no idea about what it's like to be in such a situation.

You are right I was not there. It was apparently a more traumatic experience then the one that I initially understood and I am sorry for having made light of it.

 

[barsoomcore]

Re: Re: Re: *snicker*

My original questions was why it seemed that so many individuals over the age of 20 who also practice martial arts seem also to have been in a fight after that age.

And so it may be. You haven't presented any evidence to suggest this is actually true, but it may be. And if it is, what is the causal relationship suggested? That martial arts makes people more violent? Or that violent people are more likely to study martial arts?

Im not exactly trying to submit my findings to an academic journal.

No, you appear to be trying to be rude. Titling posts things like "snicker" is rude, there's no reason to do things like that. If you think that the study of martial arts is dangerous then come right out and say so, and offer some evidence to back it up. I guarantee people will listen. Simply saying, "There are better ways to spend one's time," doesn't offer evidence of much beyond your snide nature.

If you just think that it's a waste of time then don't do it. Why go around displaying your prejudices in this fashion? Go off and do things you consider worthwhile. Let us know what they are and maybe we can help you find even better ways to spend your time.

It's interesting to me that you have spent so much energy doing nothing but make rude comments, without offering any actual opinions. We know very clearly that you do not consider spiritual pursuits worthwhile, nor do you consider martial arts worthwhile. You say you play RPGs once every three months. Do you consider them worthwhile? What activities do live up to your standards? Apparently making snide remarks about other people's beliefs does.

 

[Darius101]

Just because someone has an education does not mean they will make money. Look at the actual statistics..Education is a tool you can use to make money but it is not the "Only " tool in the tool box. To think it is, is to limit yourself. It is knowledge that is the tool that leads to success not education alone. Check to see how many of the Millionaires in the world have a college education.

Look at the current job market and ask some people looking for work now. You will see that what I wrote is my experience but it is not a unique one.
Neither website was enlightening at all....good try though.

We know from Science and Psychology that casual observations normally lead to inconclusive evidence or incorrect assumptions about a subject that can later be disproven. I am not saying your opinion is wrong here I am just saying that it is your opinion based on something you have little experience with; where as I have had intimate working knowledge for well over 23yrs

You left this alone?? I am shocked. Why dodge the real issue you have with martial arts?
Barsoom...good points there pal. You will also notice he is wasting space by quoting entire posts rather than the relevant parts of those threads this is also rather rude and space consuming.
ooops sorry I promised I would post about this anymore...
All done...
Darius

P.S. Anecdotal Evidence is not something you would post in an acedemic journal unless you had actual evidence to prove what you say on a deeper level. Oh never mind it isn't worth watching Lannon generalize and dodge the real issues he has with all this.
Most of which are glaringly clear from his mannor of posting and in what he says when he does post. Pazu made a good point about posting and so did Barsoomcore...good work guys.

 

[Lannon]

Musashi

And so it may be. You haven't presented any evidence to suggest this is actually true, but it may be. And if it is, what is the causal relationship suggested? That martial arts makes people more violent? Or that violent people are more likely to study martial arts?

It's interesting to me that you have spent so much energy doing nothing but make rude comments, without offering any actual opinions.

I have posted several opinions. I have meantioned more than once that perhaps the causal property was that by surrounding myself with violence and potentially violent people I may be inviting violence into my own life. Whether the emergence of violence in my life was meant to be intentional or not is not important. I said this at least once, perhaps more than once.

For instance, in Darius' story about Musashi we see that during a peaceful repose with a priest that Musashi's very nature produces a violent response from an otherwise non violent entity. In this particular story the entity manifests itself as the snake. The snakes response to the priest is indifference. The snakes response to the martial artist is one of fear and hostility. Musashi did not intend to invite this particular encounter into his life but because of his violent practices the encounter occurs all the same.

Musashi then comments on this describing his dismay that he should be so detached from the world because of his practices. Perhaps my question is partially manifested by Musashi himself. Here we find that despite Musashi's expertise in combat he is discontent with his relationship with the world. Recognizing that this is the case, why pursue the same path that Musashi has taken and that has ultimately made him unhappy?

 

[Lannon]

websites

[B
Neither website was enlightening at all....good try though.
[/B]

You suggested a couple things in that post that those sites were intended to address. First you suggested that the martial and mystical tradition from the east has been accepted by western scientists as being a legitimate practice (one that would be worth taking a look at). The article regarding these mystical practices details the reasons why these practices made their way into western thinking and further detailed why this was a great mistake. The ideas expressed on this website being those of many professional doctors is likely to be a strong indication that such practices will shortly be removed from western medicine. The poor experimental conditions under which these practices were originally presented should at least cause you to question their efficacy.

The other site listed the average incomes according to the amount of education a person recieved. It clearly indicates that more education generally leads to a higher salary.

Neither of the conclusions on these websites was informative at all?