I am really unlucky (or Enworld martial artists help me part 2)...

Drak: Definitely agree on the individual instructor, as well as how much you put into the training, that shows the results. Later, also agree that I was too heated in my original response to LGod.

Synicism: Definitely agree on the mental training being important as well. I find that this also varies from school to school -- some schools assume that you'll pick it up naturally, while other schools try to cultivate it in their students.

deaded-beast: Definitely agree that the average attacker is not going to come at you with a spinning back kick followed by a seven-chop combination (so to speak). :) So your notes on skill rather than style are great.

They might, however, come at you with a weapon. A good street-effective school will teach students how to handle club and knife attacks from a variety of forms, as well as gun attacks -- although the whole ranged aspect of a gun attack takes some of it out of your control. You sorta have to hope that you get a nice dumb gun attacker who gets within five feet of you, or that you can close the distance before they get their gun out and aimed.

Note: Some styles teach techniques against weapons, but only at higher ranks. This is fine and dandy and good and wonderful. I'm not saying that you should learn how to parry a knife on the first day of class. That's an example of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" just waiting to happen.

Gallo22 -- totally agree with you on the wise man staying silent where the fool speaks. Except that I spoke. Dang. So much for today's shot at enlightenment. :)

Tsyr: Agree on sparring teaching you to avoid certain strikes, and that being a bad thing. What I've found, though, is that I'd only rarely be using my street-lethal stuff against someone who came at me like the sparrer anyway. Most of my street-lethal stuff is against grabs and lunging punches -- you know, the kind of punch that an angry guy throws? Maybe it's a roundhouse, or maybe it's a straight punch, but it's got a ton of power behind it. Relatively few of my techniques are designed against jabs -- I've got enough that I won't be left out in the cold, but you don't get jabbed to death very often in the street. :)

There just aren't in general a lot of times when your sparring partner leaves himself open enough for you to break his arm, rake his groin, jab him in the eyes, snap his neck, and then break his nose.

About the only thing that I would definitely use on anyone who tried to "spar-attack" me on the street that I couldn't use on an actual sparring partner would be the good old fashioned kick to the knee. And my teachers make sure that we practice that a bunch, so that we don't forget about it if someone with a Tae Bo tape and an attitude decides to mug me through cardio-kickboxing. :)

-Tacky
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I'm not really into Monk styles; I'm more into Bardic defensive styles myself. These usually involve talking it over, and using the "hashirisaru" martial arts style if it escalates. :D

Glad to see tacky and LGodamus have come to an understanding. Good luck with your future training, Zdanboy, and sorry to hear bout the loss of your Sifu.
 


Reposting

In case you missed this last time:

Onward and upward.....
I did some checking today when I got home and began to practice some Aikido. After some practice I realized that Aikido is purely defensive. This intrigued me and I looked in the books I have on Aikido and here is what I found:
AIKIDO and the dynamic sphere by A. Westbrook and O. Rati
Dust Jacket inside front:
"....There is no attack in aikido; i.e. it's goal is to merely to neutralize an aggression and render the attacker harmless, without causing him any serious injury if at all possible. To do this requires skill, but even more, it requires an ethical intention..."
Interesting yes?
I then turned to the page on ethics and basicaly it talks about the various levels of ethical fighting and how it is viewed in Japan's culture.
The lowest form of fighting is unprovoked aggresion in the form of attack. There are four levels total with this being level one and the lowest.
The next level is where one man provokes an atack and kills the attacker.
Level 3 is when a person is attacked they defend themselves subjectivly. It is here that many newcomers find themselves. It is also what is generally ment when a person wants to learn self-defense.

Level 4 is what a martial artist strives to achieve and what Greg most recently and Kail from the begining, has posted they aspire to ( I think we all do as human beings on some level): This is where you neither attack nor do you provoke an attack, but, you defend yourself in such a way and with such skill that the attacker is not killed and in most casses is not even seriously harmed. This level shows and ethical intention of the axiom "Do no Harm". By this I mean a person has made a conscious decision to an ethical intention. You cannot do this without practice of some kind be it martial arts or through sports or even through your own means..it is a conscious decision one makes.
Others have stated this in this thread they just didn't articulate it this way. Good work guys.....
It is these ethical qualities you will look for and hopefully be able to pick out of the schools you check out. Physicalities aside, you want to train for a reason. These reasons are varied but include: Enjoyment, Physical reasons, to make friends, to learn about a foreign culture, To learn about your culture, and among other things perhaps your on a voyage of self discovery.

Now about the statements I made on Medicine and Martial Arts:
In a number of books on pressure points they list the actual points and in the older ones they list them by season, and use termonology from Eastern Acupunture/Acupressure. In the last 10yrs some very intelligent practioners have noticed a corolations to these points to various western (American and European0 texts on anotomy.
I sited one book on an earlier post and that is one of the best references around. If you get the Dillman book your learning will be total and complete but it will take a teacher to proerly train you due to the nature of the points and such. George Dillman had a school in Chicago for a while and I am not sure if he still does..but he does do seminars on this stuff and it is amazing indeed.
Another great source of information is the book by Bruce Miller that I posted the URL to in an earlier post.
On the first few pages of this book:
Pg#3 to be exact:
"...for Centuries there have been styles of martial arts which use some of the available pressure points as part of their styles. The use of these pressure points has classically recorded in the forms and Katas which are taught to new students. Neither I nor anyone who knowswhat they are talking about can dispute that these techniques are effective. The problem is that there has been a misunderstanding of why these points work.
Until recently, medicine was not advanced enough to understand what was really happening, especially in some of the more advanced techniques. Fortunately that is no longer true. Modern Western Medicine has an excellent understanding of the principles behind the most advanced pressure point techniques, even some that were thought to be fables...."
I am sure we could get into a discusion of this with Pazu? But do we need to? No it is not important to someone looking for a school to learn self-defense. Read the book if you can get your hands on it. Just for your information there are over 360 points in traditional martial arts teaching. When you look at them closer with the help of western medicine you will find well over 1000 point locations. Page 6 in this book will be of interest to Kail ( i am sure he would enjoy the whole book though).
Let me also say this, Joint locks are the crudest form of pressure points. They are quite effective and that is why the police use them.
There are a total of 7 types of pressure points:
1) Ligament
2) Tendon
3) Nerve ( the most common thing people think of when they talk pressure points)
4) Muscle
5) Organ pressure points (these are just nasty)
6) Bone
7) Reflex points (the ones that are present in everyone and everything that lives)
ALL OF THESE POINTS should be taught along with the healing points so that permanent damage does not occur. This is how they were taught to me and this is how they should be taught for balence and true understanding to occur. Yin and Yang ...heal and harm you cannot have one without the other from an ethical point of view.
Tai Chi and Bagua contain these points and teach both healing and striking these areas. Qigong also is a nice balence for this type of learning.
This is why I made the statement that Tai Chi masters are devastating. I have seen the use of these in action.

I feel like I am lectureing so I will stop for now....I hope this information is useful to you guys.

Enjoy,
Darius
 

Ok Takyris.....let me respond ......Here Goes
1. I re read my first post and it sounded kinda crappy, but I was in a hurry and rushed through it when I was writing...My second post however while it may not have been clear...had some meaning to it, but I didnt realize that the reader(you) would be looking at my words with intent to find wrongness , rather than in the spirit with which I intended them
2.About katas, yes I am coming out against showy flashy katas that are designed to look "KEWL"........and no I am not saying all katas are worthless
3.on sparring, I feel there is less worth in sparring . I know you are going to try and make fun of me for it , but it is my personal opinion that sparring will hurt the beginner more than it will help him. There are better ways of learning distancing and timing than sparring. I feel sparring is useful for advanced students only. I feel that it causes newer students to get a false sense of what a real fight is like rather than teaching them to take a punch or whatever else.
4.I still feel that the tone in your posts are very inflammatory and do not help your position any. I would rather discuss things like actual adults than try to sort through your banter, which I didnt think very witty, to try to find the kernal of your posts.. It would be much simpler to just say what you are needing to say with out all the ninja jokes and poking at me.
5. Just for informational purposes: I do have a very good bujinkan teacher. He is one of the highest ranked men in american and he is a personal student of our grandmaster Maasaki Hatsumi.
I am asking you to go ahead and assume I am posting in good spirit before you respond acidically towards me. The people on these boards that know me can tell you I am not an arrogant person nor do I act condescending towards anyone......the written medium is not my strongest point , especially when I am hurried. So, with that in mind read over this post and then respond to me.
 

LGodamus said:
1. I re read my first post and it sounded kinda crappy, but I was in a hurry and rushed through it when I was writing...My second post however while it may not have been clear...had some meaning to it, but I didnt realize that the reader(you) would be looking at my words with intent to find wrongness , rather than in the spirit with which I intended them

Welcome to the world of first impressions. You came off as arrogant in the first post, and I read all subsequent posts with that same menality -- and responded as such. Glad to see that you don't do that -- except that you still feel I'm baiting you, despite my almost complete lack of ninja jokes in later posts.

2.About katas, yes I am coming out against showy flashy katas that are designed to look "KEWL"........and no I am not saying all katas are worthless

Cool. Glad we agree on that. And yeah, if the kata is done to music and involves the practioner doing flips, I don't really see a ton of street smarts built into it. :)

3.on sparring, I feel there is less worth in sparring . I know you are going to try and make fun of me for it , but it is my personal opinion that sparring will hurt the beginner more than it will help him.

Make fun of, no. Disagree with, yes. You're not phrasing it as knowledge learned on high that we youngins should thank you for. You're actually saying that it's just your opinion -- and while I disagree with your opinion, I completely respect your right to have it. :)

You make an interesting point in differentiating between beginning students and advanced students. Perhaps my school is an exception to the rule, but we start sparring relatively early as one aspect of our training. On the other hand, nobody coming to my school would think that sparring comprised the majority of my art.

I have seen something that may be what you're talking about, where students start to think differently about sparring versus street defense -- after a few sparring classes, a beginner has started to show a little confidence when throwing kicks at his partner in a friendly sparring exercise, but he still can be incredibly uncomfortable when attacked with intent in a street defense exercise. The "freeze up" is still there.

Depends on the student, though, from my experience. Some students get the street-stuff really early on but still freeze up in sparring. I think that if you do sparring as one small part of a balanced regimen, it may help some students, and shouldn't harm any.

So basically, I agree with you that sparring exclusively ain't the best way to teach students, but I disagree that it shouldn't be taught at all (or at later levels). Two legitimate opinions.

Side note: Good to make sure we're talking about the same thing -- what do you think of as sparring? What I think of as sparring ranges from full-contact with pads and headgear to light contact for points to light contact without points to sticky-hands drills, and so forth. My school rarely does point sparring except as a game at the end of class -- noting that it's a game.

4.I still feel that the tone in your posts are very inflammatory and do not help your position any.

It was the fish thing, wasn't it? Man, you ninjas are touchy about the fish stuff.

Whoops, that was inflammatory again.

Honestly, LGod, I will discuss things like an actual adult. What I won't do is sit quietly and listen to you make remarks with the support of faulty logic. I believe that those remarks do help my position -- because when I use a wacky analogy to show that your remark doesn't make logical sense, or that you have set up a straw man, the other readers will understand that your original argument was faulty.

In fact, this even helps you, in the long run. If your martial art is so superior, you should have no trouble poking holes in my attempt to poke holes in your argument. At the higher belt ranks, teachers at my school start testing students on their knowledge, asking them why we step one way when we could step another way, asking whether it would still be safe to do a move with one aspect changed. They test students on their ability to defend their art -- or to improve it. So treat this as a learning exercise; prove me wrong.

As for the rest of it -- I honestly feel that you're being playing the guilt card to shut me up. I was heated in the first post, but I went mainly for humor in the later posts. I have no intention of causing further conflict, but I write the way I write, just as you do. If someone attacked your martial art, how would you respond? Would you stay mellow, or would you defend your art and attack their insulting argument? I did the latter. Given that I'm making ninja jokes and you're crying foul, it sounds like your response would be to go for sympathy.

For the record, I've read the better ninja books -- and I'm not calling them ninja books out of disrespect, but because it goes from ninjitsu to taijitsu to... well, you know better than I do. I liked the ninja books. I thought that Stephen Hayes (?) did a great job of showing how you could apply martial arts principles to the modern day. I practiced some of the things he suggested. It was fun to realize that I could jump a lot higher than I thought that I could jump.

As for the actual techniques in the books, they looked decent, but I was concerned about how well they would work if something went wrong -- the book didn't demonstrate much in the way of checking or protective body positioning. Of course, the book was aimed at beginners, and it's hard to show checks in a small black-and-white photo. The basic movements were nice, however, not flashy and very practical -- pretty much like what my school teaches. :)

5. Just for informational purposes: I do have a very good bujinkan teacher. He is one of the highest ranked men in american and he is a personal student of our grandmaster Maasaki Hatsumi.

Wow. Legitimate wow, not making-fun-of-you wow. That's extremely cool.

I am asking you to go ahead and assume I am posting in good spirit before you respond acidically towards me. The people on these boards that know me can tell you I am not an arrogant person nor do I act condescending towards anyone...

Well, I am one of the people on these boards. And I was not the only person who said that your first post was condescending. I understand that you don't want to be seen as condescending. I don't want to be seen as a smartass. And yet, such is my life. Most of the people on the boards would say that I am a smartass. I believe I have no reputation at all as a troll, but I am quite happy to debate someone that I feel has a faulty argument -- and if they are doing so in a manner that puts down others, I will do so with a vengeance.

(It is very sad to be the smartass. The smartass tends to die in the second act, and almost never gets the girl. Ah, well.)

But if you don't want to be seen as condescending, don't be. I am happy to give you a clean slate. I am interested in hearing your opinions and learning what you choose to share. On the other hand, please understand that I have the intelligence and the martial arts ability to spot you when you switch from dialogue to dogma, and I will call you on it.

I'm interested in hearing what a high-ranking hoshinjistu guy has to say about his martial art.

-Tacky
 
Last edited:

Takyris...to address your first little side note: point sparring is the general type I was referring to ...I dont really call push hands sparring . I think it is more of an exercise.

And I am not trying to get anyones sympathy, I was merely trying to clear up a misunderstanding. I dont care one whit if anyone sympathizes with my views, but if I am gonna make people mad ...I at least want them mad from what I actually meant ..not what was a misconstrued situation.

As for that ninja books thing.......that whole ninja joke thing is the reason Hasumi Soke changed our Name to Bujinkan ninpo Budo taijutsu ...........instead of ninjustsu.. he wanted to distance us from the bad stereo types that every one seems to attach to the word Ninja. Furthermore the reason I said what I did about my teacher , was not to wow you, but because you asked in a round a bout way.

Furthermore , My so called downing of schools that spar is actually related to this post, and was not meant as a straw man. I was meaning it to be advice " if the school you go to is teaching point sparring and and flashy kata, it may not be what you are looking for" that type of thing , not the I hate sparring and kata thing that it was misconstrued as.
 
Last edited:


I swear, it never fails, someone makes a legitiment thread, and someone's gotta go off on a frickin' rant. While LGodamus was attempting to be somewhat civil in giving his opnions (key word), Takyris seems to just want to be troll. Trolls are evil.

ADVERTISEMENT: One out of every ten posters is a troll, are you protected? Get your Trollers Thread Insurance today, because tomorrow could be too late. Persons age 1 to 150 are not eligable for Trollers Thread Insurance, humans need not apply.

EDIT: I took out the part where I called someone a smartass and the part bout coming home with a bloody nose. I don't wanna get into any trouble :)
 
Last edited:

Rav: D'oh! I have now officially been labeled a troll. And if you were calling me a smartass, you really have nothing to worry about, offensewise. Unless Eric's Grandma doesn't like the term.

LGod: Sorry to misunderstand you on the sympathy stuff. My bad.

As for asking about your school, I really wasn't. I thought that I had gotten a pretty good idea of your training level and type of school from your posts. Hearing that you're at a school that prestigious was genuinely neat. One of the things that I sometimes feel bummed about is the fact that my school is somewhat muddled in terms of where our stuff came from. It's not that the teachers don't know, mind you -- it's just a whole bunch of degrees of separation, so that if someone asks me anything more in-depth than "What style in general?", I have to give a darn speech.

I mean, for practical street purposes, having a good school is more important than having a historically understandable school, but having a historically understandable school makes it more likely that you'll have a good school. :)

As for:

Furthermore , My so called downing of schools that spar is actually related to this post, and was not meant as a straw man. I was meaning it to be advice " if the school you go to is teaching point sparring and and flashy kata, it may not be what you are looking for" that type of thing , not the I hate sparring and kata thing that it was misconstrued as.

Right, then. With this, I completely and utterly agree. And I think I see the source of our disagreement, in fact. You use "sparring and katas" to identify schools like that. I use "tournament school" -- that is, if the school is primarily interested in getting its students really really good at tournament sparring, tournament katas, tournament board-breaking, or whatever, then it's really unlikely that it's gonna help you much on the street.

I really understood your earlier posts to mean that you thought that all schools that had katas were useless. Now that I know that you mean "tournament schools" instead of "all schools with katas", I can completely back up your statement.

'Cause my school teaches katas, and we do sparring, but the school doesn't do tournaments. Some individual students want to do tournaments, and the teachers are happy to give them some pointers that don't work on the street but might look cool in a tournament kata or a sparring competition -- but that stuff happens outside of the regular lessons. Nobody at our school gets promoted for putting on a purple gi with gold trim and doing one-handed cartwheels with a flaming katana while Brittney Spears blares in the background.

In fact, now that I've just visualized that particular scenario, no one anywhere should be promoted for that.

So -- glad we kept talking. Now that I understand your position, I pretty much agree with you.

-Tacky
 
Last edited:

Pets & Sidekicks

Remove ads

Top