I didn't like Bluffside. But I didn't read it, either!

Kaptain_Kantrip said:


If it is, I'm not noticing it. :) I look at everything that comes out, but if it doesn't have that magic glitz rub off in the first few seconds after I pick it up, it goes back on the shelf. If I miss out, is it my fault or the publishers for not catching my eye?

My answer to that would be that the publishers already know that they can't please everyone and already realize that some people are not going to buy their books because they don't have projectiles shooting people's eyes out. ;)

Judging by what you've said in previous posts it sounds like the smaller publishers aren't going to do it for you. You're better off just picking up Wizards of the Coast products or the writers' products who work freelance for them. That's my advice as a retailer. ;)

~Derek
 

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Which would me for you Derek, if I had the cash, I'd probably be dealing with the smaller based d20 companies like Thunderhead, Dark Portal and others out there.
 

Kaptain_Kantrip said:


I never said "shiny" equalled better content. It doesn't. It can be an indicator of substandard content in many cases (as in your comic book example or my Hollywood example--I stopped buying comics when that new trend started and prices went through the roof). But "shiny" is what most consumers THINK they want. Even those who know better often have a hard time resisting the urge to "go shiny" when they get ready to spend money. Like Doritos Extreme: It has a super shiny new package and promises the moon, but when you taste the chips you're like, "Damn, these kinda suck. I should've bought regular Doritos."

But see, I don't agree with this and honestly can say I sell the stuff so I know what I'm talking about. Yeah, there are people out there who only buy books with scantily clad women on the covers but they're a minority. It's no different for "shiney" either. A serious gamer is going to buy a book based on the subject and or content not because it's full color with <insert famous artist here> doing the cover art. I agree it's a valid target audinece but I can't agree it's a big audience.

~Derek
 

TalonComics said:


Judging by what you've said in previous posts it sounds like the smaller publishers aren't going to do it for you.
~Derek

That's not really true. I have a completely different standard for judging pdfs. They are cheap and ugly, but often have good content. I bought pdfs of the following and liked them all:

Book of Eldritch Might, Book of Eldritch Might II, Gar'Udok's Compleat Librum of Necromantik Artes (sp?), Inns and Taverns, Temples and Shrines, Castles and Keeps. They weren't pretty (BoEM II excepted), but they had good crunchy bits.

I bought the original (ugly) Adventure Keep modules from AEG and liked them. But when they increased the quality--and content as far as I'm concerned--I bought even more. I know AEG isn't a small start-up, but those first Adventure Keep modules sure looked like it!
 
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Kaptain_Kantrip said:
Book of Eldritch Might, Book of Eldritch Might II, Gar'Udok's Compleat Librum of Necromantik Artes (sp?), Inns and Taverns, Temples and Shrines, Castles and Keeps. They weren't pretty (BoEM II excepted), but they had good crunchy bits.

Sorry to pick you up on this mate, it seems everyone is jumping on you.. ;) ... But you've admitted here to buying "ill" presented items here for the crunchy bits yet then say the likes of Bluffside aint going to sell because its not well presented, yet there are plenty of comments on the crunchy bits in Bluffside scattered about ENWorld by non TG Peoples .......
Just wondering if you would clarify why you differentiate between the two..
Admittedly people expect less from a PDF, and want less really as if you have to add printing costs of color illustrations to it it gets real expensive.. but at the same time you're not really going to know the crunchy bits that are in there till you buy it, and buy it not based on its presentation... yet you would not bad a "Badly" designed product in a shop that you would have a chance to look through adn check out the crunchy bits for yourself...
It don't quite match up....

Apologies if all these posts seem to be becoming a bash Kaptain post but I think you can see by the comments that a lot of people disagree with your thoughts on Production being the be all and end all, and if you reply purely with what you have said before regarding the production people are going to come back and back up thier thoughts already posted too.....


Cheers
Andrew
 

Marion Poliquin said:
My only thumbs down right now (I haven't read all that much yet)is that Todd Lockwood is apparently not credited.

Yes that was a big BOO BOO as well as leaving art credit off for Scott Purdy. The names seemed to have fallen off that page and we are going to post some "errors" soon and those will be amongst them, not happy but it happens.

Sorry Todd, sorry Scott:confused:
 
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DungeonKeeperUK said:


Sorry to pick you up on this mate, it seems everyone is jumping on you.. ;) ... But you've admitted here to buying "ill" presented items here for the crunchy bits yet then say the likes of Bluffside aint going to sell because its not well presented, yet there are plenty of comments on the crunchy bits in Bluffside scattered about ENWorld by non TG Peoples .......
Just wondering if you would clarify why you differentiate between the two..
Admittedly people expect less from a PDF, and want less really as if you have to add printing costs of color illustrations to it it gets real expensive.. but at the same time you're not really going to know the crunchy bits that are in there till you buy it, and buy it not based on its presentation... yet you would not bad a "Badly" designed product in a shop that you would have a chance to look through adn check out the crunchy bits for yourself...
It don't quite match up....

Apologies if all these posts seem to be becoming a bash Kaptain post but I think you can see by the comments that a lot of people disagree with your thoughts on Production being the be all and end all, and if you reply purely with what you have said before regarding the production people are going to come back and back up thier thoughts already posted too.....


Cheers
Andrew

To clarify what I said re: pdfs, there is really no way to effectively "preview" a pdf before purchasing it. It's an intangible thing hanging in cyberspace. Once you buy it, you're stuck with whatever it looks like. Since it's a cheap download made by fans and not professionals in some cases, you automatically expect less. The crunchy bits are played up in the product's advertising, because there is usually nothing else it offers in terms of bells and whistles. I am a big advocate of crunchy bits, but when it comes to buying expensive products at the store, I expect a certain level of "shiny" for my gaming dollar. Hypocritical? Maybe. But a lifetime of buying habits ain't gonna change easy. :)

As to Talon Comics saying that he moves a lot of "non-shiny" stuff, I'm not surprised, as he caters to ENWorlders in his mail order sales, and seems to be a sharp cookie on how to move anything, in store or out. My local game shop, on the other hand, which does no mail order or internet sales and has only a marginal grasp of how to push product (instigated by my complaints in trying to establish a New Release section instead of just jamming everything "library" style into a wall unit in no particular order--not even alphabetically by company!), sells shiny first, ugly second (but usually not at all). They sell out of Kenzer, FFG, AEG, WoTC, Atlas and Mongoose products. Products by "less shiny" companies like Chaosium, Troll Lord, Hero's Journey, Mystic Eye, Thunderhead, etc., sit on the shelf and rot for months, if not years. I think my local game store is more indicative of how the public buys and how game stores (who tend to place more value on comics, toys and trading cards) in general operate. Fat, sweaty geeks in a veritable rummage sale of merchandise new and old, with no clue how to take their store out of the Stone Age into the shiny modern marketplace. Stereotype? Truism! Most stores I've seen are like this. The better organized, brighter, shinier ones sell more product.
 

Kaptain_Kantrip said:


That's not really true. I have a completely different standard for judging pdfs. They are cheap and ugly, but often have good content. I bought pdfs of the following and liked them all:

Book of Eldritch Might, Book of Eldritch Might II, Gar'Udok's Compleat Librum of Necromantik Artes (sp?), Inns and Taverns, Temples and Shrines, Castles and Keeps. They weren't pretty (BoEM II excepted), but they had good crunchy bits.

Actually, I thought that the Compleat Librum of Necromantic Arts was *very* pretty for a .pdf, typos aside. Decent cover art, and the inside looked great -- much better than Mongoose's Necro book. And it had more in it, too. A steal for a .pdf.
 

Forrester said:


Actually, I thought that the Compleat Librum of Necromantic Arts was *very* pretty for a .pdf, typos aside. Decent cover art, and the inside looked great -- much better than Mongoose's Necro book. And it had more in it, too. A steal for a .pdf.

I second that.

But there are also less pretty (or downright ugly) pdf products which are gems, IMO.

Maidenheim, Primal Codex, and Enchirydion (whatever) of Mystic Music spring to mind.

Were they in print, I don't know that I would have picked them up but because they were PDF's I did. And I'm glad I did so.
 
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Kaptain_Kantrip said:
As to Talon Comics saying that he moves a lot of "non-shiny" stuff, I'm not surprised, as he caters to ENWorlders in his mail order sales, and seems to be a sharp cookie on how to move anything, in store or out. My local game shop, on the other hand, which does no mail order or internet sales and has only a marginal grasp of how to push product (instigated by my complaints in trying to establish a New Release section instead of just jamming everything "library" style into a wall unit in no particular order--not even alphabetically by company!), sells shiny first, ugly second (but usually not at all). They sell out of Kenzer, FFG, AEG, WoTC, Atlas and Mongoose products. Products by "less shiny" companies like Chaosium, Troll Lord, Hero's Journey, Mystic Eye, Thunderhead, etc., sit on the shelf and rot for months, if not years. I think my local game store is more indicative of how the public buys and how game stores (who tend to place more value on comics, toys and trading cards) in general operate. Fat, sweaty geeks in a veritable rummage sale of merchandise new and old, with no clue how to take their store out of the Stone Age into the shiny modern marketplace. Stereotype? Truism! Most stores I've seen are like this. The better organized, brighter, shinier ones sell more product.

Worst. Store. Ever. ;)
Yeah, that is a problem across the country with most gaming/comic stores. Most retailers just want a place to play and get their games cheap. Going outside of that little world or their corner of the block just isn't something they can handle. I'm fine with that as it's just more customers for me. ;)
Retailers can really make a difference by just asking, "Is there anything you're looking for?" everytime a customer comes in. Of course some people are just browsing but many a time you'll get, "I'm looking for D&D books" as a response. A well informed retailer at that point can direct them to all of the books they could have missed with no prompting.

I should make a bootleg t-shirt with the Simpson's Comicbook Guy and a red "ban" bar through his face. ;)

~Derek
 

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