D&D 5E I don't actually get the opposition for the warlord... or rather the opposition to the concept.

They are daily effects and run out fast.
At low level, yes.
Spells are supposed to have stronger effects, but be more limited.

A hypothetical warlord or lazy lord could grant attacks at will varying who gets them from round to round as needed. A spell caster can't switch haste to a ranged PC if they have already hasted a melee PC. Well technically they can by blowing another spell slot. A Warlord could.
Yes. Tactical Flexibility would be a good thing for the warlord to have.

And a non-hypotical sorcerer can grant attacks, and then use their other action to cast a cantrip. Or quicken haste and cast a cantrip on the same turn. Less flexible, but more powerful.

The Lazylord I think would be broken in 5E, superiority die limits it a bit in the BM fighter. The other warlords are a bit easier.
I disagree. I could possibly see waiting till level 5 to grant at-will attacks, though it depends on what else they get.

But lazylord can also just run around using the help action, preferably from a distance, until level 5.

Or have a "survey the battlefield" / "study the enemy" action to generate dice. So you can only grant an attack every other turn at low levels.
 

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You mean by AEDU?
They switched back to spell slots for 5e.

Or do you mean that marshals went from very underpowered to moderately overpowered in 4e?

Or do you mean how to balance a warlord in 5e? Again, 5e getting rid of free actions, opportunity actions, and capping Int at 5 already drastically reduces the power level of warlords.
It's interesting to me that you need to so frenetically jump around from the various editions in order to try and prove what should otherwise be a simple point. You are so erratic and can't stay on point it's no wonder you can't explain yourself.

You are trying to say what, exactly? That converting a warlord from 4e to 5e uses the same process as converting a wizard from 3e to 4e? Because that's the only thing I've managed to translate from all your juggling.

A level 20 sorcerer...
Hehe. 20th level, huh? Okay, so give warlords their at-will action granting as their 20th level capstone ability. Problem solved. But I doubt seriously you'll get support for that idea from the Kitchen Sinkers here.

You claim that a warlord granting 1 attack at-will is broken
but sorcerer granting 4+ attack every round of combat isn't.

That argument is terminally flawed.
I completely agree. Your attempt to compare a 20th level sorcerer to a 1st level warlord in order to try and prove it's okay to grant at-will off-turn actions is terminally flawed.
 

It's interesting to me that you need to so frenetically jump around from the various editions in order to try and prove what should otherwise be a simple point. You are so erratic and can't stay on point it's no wonder you can't explain yourself.
Well i don't understand what your asking.

You are trying to say what, exactly?
That the overpoweredness of the 4e warlord has already been fixed with the base 5e rules.

Hehe. 20th level, huh? Okay, so give warlords their at-will action granting as their 20th level capstone ability. Problem solved. But I doubt seriously you'll get support for that idea from the Kitchen Sinkers here.

I completely agree. Your attempt to compare a 20th level sorcerer to a 1st level warlord in order to try and prove it's okay to grant at-will off-turn actions is terminally flawed.
A level 20 sorcerer is granting 4+ attacks per turn, not 1 attack.

So a level 20 warlord might grant attacks to everyone in the party at-will as their capstone.


And again, i can see waiting till level 5 for at-will attack granting. Possibly a more limited version before hand, like grant an attack for 1/2 damage, or with disadvantage. Depends on what else a warlord gets.
 

I do not believe, if someone's intestines are out on the floor, a simple loss of HPs is what's going on. Nor a good night's rest being all that's needed to fully recover.
As per the rules though, HP are fully recovered following a long rest. There are no core mechanics to suggest otherwise. Remember that interview with Mearls you posted regarding the Warlord? One of the points of opposition Mearls voiced to shout healing amounted to 'shouting someone's intestines back in.' Yet one of the counter-points people raised was that one could simply spend HD or take a long rest and 'rest their intestines back in.' It only highlighted how silly Mearls's example was and clearly meant to unfairly demonize the warlord's abilities.
 

Well i don't understand what your asking.
I'm asking you to quit being off-topic. When the issue is translating something from 4e to 5e, and the need to maintain balance, don't bring up 3e to 4e. Because it's wholly irrelevant and only hopes to obscure the real issue. Which is balance from 4e to 5e. 3e has nothing to do with what is being discussed here. That's my point. Unless you can explain better what, if anything, 3e-to-4e wizards has to do with 4e-to-5e warlords?

That the overpoweredness of the 4e warlord has already been fixed with the base 5e rules.
Agreed. And I think the devs did a great job with the battlemaster, valor bard and handful of feats...

A level 20 sorcerer is granting 4+ attacks per turn, not 1 attack.
All day long? If so, what else are they doing that day? I'm betting not much. Also, are you forgetting the concentration mechanic on purpose? Or just hoping I won't remember it?

So a level 20 warlord might grant attacks to everyone in the party at-will as their capstone.
See my previous comment directly above. The flaw in your theory is that your proposed warlord isn't doing just that one thing all day like the sorcerer. He's also got a kitchen sink's worth of other awesome things he's doing while also granting all his allies double actions all day long. Meanwhile, there's that poor sorcerer, spending all his resources trying to keep up with just one of many features in the warlord's swiss army knife toolbox. Stuff he's still completely able to access and use, I'm betting.

And again, i can see waiting till level 5 for at-will attack granting. Possibly a more limited version before hand, like grant an attack for 1/2 damage, or with disadvantage. Depends on what else a warlord gets.
Broken. At-will, off-turn action granting is broken. Full stop. It certainly was in 4e for the same reasons it would be in 5e. Maybe even more so given 5e's much tighter action economy and the realities of BA. Or are you saying being able to do so would use up all the warlord's resources for the day? I'm betting not, here, as well.
 
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As per the rules though, HP are fully recovered following a long rest. There are no core mechanics to suggest otherwise.
Sounds like you are suggesting there are core rules for having your intestines out? Please cite. It doesn't even have to be a hard "rule". Even just an example in the book showing how being low on HPs could indicate such a grievous would would be nice.
 

If wizards can be balanced, why can't warlords?
Wizards are balanced? ;)

Seriously, though, 'balance' just isn't the concern in 5e it may have been in prior eds. A 5e class dropped into 4e would be horribly broken, because 4e class balance was very robust, facilitated by a common structure, which those classes violate in major ways. A 4e character might top out at 4e daily attack powers at 20th, while a 5e caster typically starts with 3, and gains more ever single level. Neither scale like they did in 3e and earlier, but the 5e caster is also wildly more versatile - the 4e character picked those 4 dailies one at a time as he leveled, and could retrain one each level if he wanted to, between levels, they stayed the same, and he could use each one exactly once, while the 5e caster can change prepared spells every day, and choose which to cast with a slot round by round, potentially 'spamming' whatever daily spell works best in the situation. Then there's 5e classes that have no dailies and even less flexibility than 4e characters did.

There's no way the same kind of balance applies in 5e. Not even close. 5e balance is more fluid and under the control of the DM, coming mainly from the way the DM presents challenges - 6-8 encounters with 2 short rests between long rests puts enough pressure on spell slots (and other limited-use resources) to keep casters from applying maximum spell power to every situation, and from there it's just a matter of presenting a variety of challenges such that each character gets to step in with the right spell, or ability, or skill check, or step up and do enough DPR, to have his moment to shine.

The Warlord, by the very nature of the concept, can't be as versatile and flexible as a caster, simply because even the wildest narrative constructs it's ever used don't come close to doing the range of things magic can do in D&D, nor are those things the warlord can do (mostly exhort allies to do) unlimited in nature (you can only dig so deep so often), conversely, a faithful implementation be as narrowly DRP-focused as existing martial classes. That puts the warlord squarely in the center of the pack as far as the difficulty of balancing it goes. A DM who can handle balance for a game that includes a Champion, Cleric and a Wizard would barely notice the challenge of balancing a party that included a Warlord.

A 4e warlord powers, directly ported to 5e (changing free action to reaction and surge to hit dice), would be underpowered. You simply don't have enough actions, and int isn't high enough for game breaking bonuses.
A few minor-action attack or multiple attack powers or a free-action chain combo and you could 'break' (or merely optimize, sometimes there's not much of a difference) an early 4e striker pretty dramatically. The infamous Fey-Charger, for instance. The worst of those - which, I guess, you could assume is were they drew the line between 'broken' and 'optimized' - would get 'updated' out of existence fairly quickly. Warlord attack-granting could figure into some of those builds, particularly whole-party-optimization builds, because it was, afterall, a force-multiplier. But there was nothing innately broken about the Warlord's attack-granting, because the action economy was fairly tight, and attack-grants reflected that. The action economy in 5e is even tighter, with no minor actions, and with all off-turn actions consolidated into a single reaction. There's just not a lot of room to over-optimize attack granting. Summoning, for instance, is already 'more broken' than anything that's been proposed for the 5e warlord.
 

Sounds like you are suggesting there are core rules for having your intestines out? Please cite. It doesn't even have to be a hard "rule". Even just an example in the book showing how being low on HPs could indicate such a grievous would would be nice.
Take it up with Mearls, as he was the one suggesting as much in the interview you had posted. :erm:
 

Take it up with Mearls, as he was the one suggesting as much in the interview you had posted. :erm:
Specifically a hand, rather than intestines, FWIW.

A hypothetical warlord or lazy lord could grant attacks at will varying who gets them from round to round as needed. A spell caster can't switch haste to a ranged PC if they have already hasted a melee PC. Well technically they can by blowing another spell slot.
And? Attacks are fungible, they just do damage. So you can swap between giving the Barbarian one more attack or the archer Fighter one more attack? So what? If you were just another archer, you'd be doing even more damage every round.

As long as at-will attack grants just grant simple attacks with none of the target's pile-on DPR effects (like Extra Attack or SA or Smite - most of which are bonus action or on-turn-only, anyway), they're not remotely broken, they're just a way of for some of the less lead-from-the-front builds to toss out modest damage when there's nothing critical to do on their turn.

Granting a less restricted action, or spellcasting other than a cantrip (though burning through slots twice as fast is already a major limiter in itself) or off turn attack actions identical to on-turn ones, OTOH, certainly shouldn't be at-will.
 

Take it up with Mearls, as he was the one suggesting as much in the interview you had posted. :erm:
Heh. You familiar with the word "context"? Also, you are dodging. You claim HP loss can be equated to having your intestines ripped out. I'm asking you to show where it even gives an example of that. Not even a rule. Just an example.

Regardless, you are wrong about there not being rules for it, anyway. The DMG has rules for grievous injuries. But guess what? It's more involved than just being low on HPs. That's where you go when you have someone with their intestines on the floor.
 

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