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D&D 5E I don't actually get the opposition for the warlord... or rather the opposition to the concept.

Yea, well, you get 1-3 more attacks than the casters. So non-casting classes are, possibly, "screwed" only in "variety and flexibility".

Also power, considering the value of those attacks compared to higher level spells.

Other than the fact temporary hit points don't stack and cannot be healed but allow you to exceed your maximum.
The latter effect is key. Temporary hp are useful when facing a high damage opponent that might knock you down even when at max. And they're also preventative. So you have the effect of the warlord shouting and inspiring before combat - the standard rallying cry seen in fiction before a battle. Temporary hit points are a great representation for the warlord psyching people up and allowing them to fight longer than they would otherwise.

So the cleric sits around after combat healing injuries, while the warlord shouts at allies at the start of combat or gets them up again after a big hit.

Oh, and it also means if you have a cleric and a warlord in the party their abilities complement each other instead of competing. There's a reason to have both and not just one or the other.

Except that the Cleric also has ways to grant temporary hit points. And returns you real ones afterwards, which this hypothetical warlord doesn't. Also, in the fiction sense, the rallying cry is something you perform when people are starting to waver. Before the fighting starts it's a battle/war cry (the terms being quite interchangeable). And the Cleric can also deliver that. I'm not convinced your cleric isn't doing more and better things than your hypothetical warlord.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
How is that any more complicated or bookkeeping than THP and HP already co-existing? You are technically supposed to be tracking them separately since THP does not stack, so you have to keep track of the THP you have to prevent THP stacking.
It's essentially a third kind of hp. You have your current hps, which healing just adds to, you have your temp hps, which don't stack & don't wake you up, then you have these other hps that don't stack, but do wake you up, and then just add to your current hps if there are any left when your rest. What happens when you have a few of these temps, then get a larger pile of regular temps? Do they disappear? (if they do, are you now unconscious?) Is damage taken off the larger pile of temps first, until they're equal, then off both? Do the temps not-stack separately, so actually do stack?

That gets tricky. It still doesn't work well with people who want meatier hp.
Neither do HD, death saves, overnight healing, or Second Wind - and none of them are options that can simply be ignored at the player level by simply passing over certain choices (there's no alternative feature to Second wind, the rest are universal - the DM has to employ a module or otherwise tinker), while Inspiring Word /could/ be just one among many choices in a list of apprentice-tier Warlord maneuvers.

And since the thp become hp tracking the separately just becomes bookkeeping. It just seems like it'd be too complicated and problematic.
Yep, whereas simply restoring hps works smoothly as an established mechanic.

So you have the effect of the warlord shouting and inspiring before combat - the standard rallying cry seen in fiction before a battle. Temporary hit points are a great representation for the warlord psyching people up and allowing them to fight longer than they would otherwise.
Rallying is more in the midst of battle, when things are turning against you. But, yes, for before-battle inspiration, Temp hps are a good model, and an option the Warlord should absolutely have. For rallying /in/ battle, restoring hps works better - of the two, and creating a new kind of granted hp carries bookkeeping and complexity baggage.

So the cleric sits around after combat healing injuries, while the warlord shouts at allies at the start of combat or gets them up again after a big hit.
If you had both in the party, they could specialize that way, yes. The Cleric could take Prayer of Healing and the Warlord could take some Temp-hp-granting St. Crispin's Day speech thing. If you only have one or the other, though, the player should be able to cover both forms of support.

Oh, and it also means if you have a cleric and a warlord in the party their abilities complement each other instead of competing.
I suppose if you took enough spells away from the Cleric, and enough options away from the Warlord, you could create a separate niche for each, such that parties couldn't get by with one or the other as sole contributor of support to the party. You'd have to further niche-limit the Bard and Druid, as well, I suppose. Doesn't sound like a great idea compared to just letting all 4 have reasonable customizablity and flexibility.


a) presumes people are either warlord fans or hate martial healing.
That is a crazy assumption. Most people would be neither, having never even heard of D&D, and it's likely a majority of D&D fans don't much care, either. OTOH, it is pretty safe to assume that people who vocally hate "martial healing" also vocally oppose the warlord.

b) presumes temporary hit points are inferior. They're not.
They are /different/. Temp hps can exceed your max, but don't stack and can't wake you up.
Regaining hit points and temporary hit points each have their strengths and weaknesses. They're situationally stronger and weaker. But there are situations when it's better to have temporary hit points.
Temp hps work well as damage-mitigation, and there's lots of forms of damage mitigation among the existing support classes, in addition to all of them being able to restore hps.

Being restricted to only one or the other would make for an inferior support class.

c) presumes the intent is to make martial healing inferior to magic. It's not.
You very rarely see a proposed solution that would make the warlord balanced with other support casters, let alone superior. If everything you propose would tend to make a non-casting class strictly inferior to casting classes that make the same sorts of contributions, your intent doesn't really even matter.

And it's not about making martial healing inferior. It's about making it different
Meh. Restoring hps is a very bland mechanic. There's no way nor need to make the /mechanic/ different. Make the classes and the way they invoke the mechanic different, and you're there. A Cleric calls upon a deity for the power to cast Cure Wounds, a Bard uses arcane lore and the power of words to cast the exact same spell, and is sufficiently differentiated. A Warlord's Inspiring Word is already better-differentiated simply by not being a spell, at all, and could be further differentiated quite a bit - tapping HD, basing healing on the target's as well as the warlord's level, etc - without actually undercutting it's usefulness by making it do something other than actually restoring hps.
 
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Except that the Cleric also has ways to grant temporary hit points.
Such as??

And returns you real ones afterwards, which this hypothetical warlord doesn't. ]/quote]
And?
If you have 10 hp, take 5 damage and are healed for 4hp you have 9hp. If you have 10hp, get 4 temporary HP, and take 5 damage you have 9 hp. The fact the warlord cannot heal after is irrelevant.

Also, in the fiction sense, the rallying cry is something you perform when people are starting to waver. Before the fighting starts it's a battle/war cry (the terms being quite interchangeable).
Rallying cry is flexible in usage. It could be used before or during. But, really, its just a name.

And the Cleric can also deliver that. I'm not convinced your cleric isn't doing more and better things than your hypothetical warlord.
Only if you choose to believe so. It's doing things differently. The *only* way to make it so one class isn't slightly better than the others is to reskin the warlord. Otherwise there will always be some margin of error.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Such as??
Off the top of my head - and the top of the spell list - Aid. Cleric spell, temp hps, plus. Plenty of other more varied/flavorful forms of damage mitigation, as well.

And?
If you have 10 hp, take 5 damage and are healed for 4hp you have 9hp. If you have 10hp, get 4 temporary HP, and take 5 damage you have 9 hp. The fact the warlord cannot heal after is irrelevant.
You have 10 hps, someone else gets 4 temps but is never attacked, you take 5, oh well. Temp hps, specifically, and damage mitigation, in general, are sometimes better than restoring hps, sometimes worse. For a class to make adequate support contributions, it needs to be able to do both. There are a lot of ways to mitigate damage - even buffing might mitigate damage by dropping an enemy a round early. Restoring hps is blah by comparison, but it's often the only thing that'll help.

Only if you choose to believe so.
Strangely appropriate with regard to a Cleric's abilities. ;P An article of faith.
 

mellored

Legend
Not sure why that's relevant. We aren't talking about 3e. We are talking about a broken 4e class being desired in 5e.
If wizards can be balanced, why can't warlords?

Thanksfully so. So why ruin that by breaking BA and the action economy?
No one is suggesting you do.

IMO, at-will action granting would be broken in 5e as well. As you just explained, BA and action economy is at work keeping things in check. Blowing it up leads to broken.
Is haste broken? Is dissonant whispers (which makes an enemy provoke OA's). You can easily get enough spell slots to keep it up all day.

A sorcerer casting twin-haste, then twin-dissonant whispers, and granting 4+attacks each round does not break the game. Neither will a high level warlord doing the same.

What warlord?
A 4e warlord powers, directly ported to 5e (changing free action to reaction and surge to hit dice), would be underpowered. You simply don't have enough actions, and int isn't high enough for game breaking bonuses.
 

ChrisCarlson

First Post
If wizards can be balanced, why can't warlords?
How were warlords (like wizards) balanced from 3e to 4e?

...You can easily get enough spell slots to keep it up all day.
This is unsupportable. Besides which, all my experiences with 5e thus far tells me otherwise. Which further means I believe the entire basis for your argument is terminally flawed. Or at a minimum based on flawed data. Now what?

A 4e warlord powers, directly ported to 5e (changing free action to reaction and surge to hit dice), would be underpowered.
Why on earth would you want a 5e class with hundreds of class features? That's horrible.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
If wizards can be balanced, why can't warlords?

No one is suggesting you do.

Is haste broken? Is dissonant whispers (which makes an enemy provoke OA's). You can easily get enough spell slots to keep it up all day.

A sorcerer casting twin-haste, then twin-dissonant whispers, and granting 4+attacks each round does not break the game. Neither will a high level warlord doing the same.

A 4e warlord powers, directly ported to 5e (changing free action to reaction and surge to hit dice), would be underpowered. You simply don't have enough actions, and int isn't high enough for game breaking bonuses.

They are daily effects and run out fast. A hypothetical warlord or lazy lord could grant attacks at will varying who gets them from round to round as needed. A spell caster can't switch haste to a ranged PC if they have already hasted a melee PC. Well technically they can by blowing another spell slot. A Warlord could.

The Lazylord I think would be broken in 5E, superiority die limits it a bit in the BM fighter. The other warlords are a bit easier.
 

mellored

Legend
How were warlords (like wizards) balanced from 3e to 4e?
You mean by AEDU?
They switched back to spell slots for 5e.

Or do you mean that marshals went from very underpowered to moderately overpowered in 4e?

Or do you mean how to balance a warlord in 5e? Again, 5e getting rid of free actions, opportunity actions, and capping Int at 5 already drastically reduces the power level of warlords.

This is unsupportable.
Well sorcerer's don't have dissonant whispers, so my fault there. So we'll use favored soul to get command, which also makes enemies provoke OA's.

A level 20 sorcerer, can use her level 3 and 4 slots and 21 sorcery points (with 8 from the capstone) on twin haste = all 6 battles per day.
You then convert your spell points, 5*3 + 6*2 + 7*2 + 8+9 = 58 / 2 = 29 + 4 = 33 times to cast command.


So you have twin-haste for 6 battles, and command for 33 rounds. That's enough to grant 4+ attacks every round of every battle, and still have a several spells left over.

Besides which, all my experiences with 5e thus far tells me otherwise. Which further means I believe the entire basis for your argument is terminally flawed. Or at a minimum based on flawed data. Now what?
You claim that a warlord granting 1 attack at-will is broken
but sorcerer granting 4+ attack every round of combat isn't.

That argument is terminally flawed.


There's a big reason why sorcerer's don't convert all their spell points into command and twin-haste.
Granting attacks is not broken. Sorcerer's can do a lot more with meteor swarm, or mass suggestions.

Why on earth would you want a 5e class with hundreds of class features? That's horrible.
I agree, there's no reason to make 100+ powers.

But it wouldn't be overpowered.
 

Orlax

First Post
I do not believe, if someone's intestines are out on the floor, a simple loss of HPs is what's going on. Nor a good night's rest being all that's needed to fully recover.

That's why hp aren't precisely meat, because even at zero hp if you've stabilized and passed your death saving throws it takes like an hour of laying there before you stand up like nothing is wrong. Describing death is rough in D&D you must be sure to not over describe your current situation until the outcome is absolutely certain. It is why full description of a scene is best left till after the mechanics have born out the scene's result.
 

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