"I don't like my Christmas present" -- do you enjoy getting treasure?

[Tallifer]

The point was in the old days players DIDN'T KNOW what a flametongue was. The DMG was the home of the treasure tables because if you read the DMG you understood that the tables were suggestions, not requirements.

I played AD&D in the early 1980s. Every player I have ever known had easy access to the Dungeon Master's Guide: buy it or borrow it, no big deal.

Fortunately most of my dungeon masters did not give pointless items to the characters. And equally certainly, the players always made strong hints as to what treasure they would like to eventually discover. Wish lists and treasure parcels are just recent terms for ageless customs.

Of course the dungeon master generally rejected demands for a vorpal sword, but a magical wand for the wizard or a holy symbol for the cleric was naturally considered as were other wonderful things.

 

[Tallifer]

Also: I think the process of deciding who the treasure is for is one of the things that makes it a lot less fun to receive. First, 2 or 3 out of four players are not excited at all because they can't use the item. Then the last player or two is like "I didn't find this personally, but we're sharing out among the party so I guess I get it." It's like every magic item is a regift from a party that doesn't want it before it gets to you.

This is another big problem with Christmas present style treasure: a dungeon master who simply rolls randomly or carelessly allots treasure ends up rewarding only the players with the most common character concepts. Fighters can always magical swords and armour. The Bard would like to find a lute or harp some day. Soon the party has a bag of holding full of +1 weapons and armour which no one will use, but some party members still have nothing which actually helps them.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Upgrades are needing (because of gamesystem), but if magic is just that it's very boring. You remember chrismas gifts for dads about some book chronicles 1977-2011 version in shelf he never reads.

Just upgrade because now monsters are more powerful, you need this +1 more to compite, it's about as cool when I get in WoW some new green item which is marginally better.

Player needs for magic works in my games typically in this order:
- Relevant all the time needed items (healing typically, need to be found constantly)
- Bonuses to fight monster better (magic weapon, armor, +x stat/ac items)
- Something that gives my character "style" according to my feat choices
- bags of holding, magical camp tools
- Unusual, interesting items that are useful (situational use)
- mystery things/things I can play with (much fun can be had by drinking potions, that are not so used otherwise.. levitation, jumping)

When I make adventures I avoid 25 +1 shortsword syndrome. Weapon tables of modules seem to favour rogues. Also they seem to avoid any bonuses from stat enchants to go over +3 (sometimes +2). It's bit sad to look at my 23th lv character's gear which has been basicly same since lv 8 after finding better things just stopped. Pathfinder adventures also give much less gold than before, plus since exp costs went away all spells cost gold now. I think that change was mistake.

I always get disappointed faces if I run games accoringly to module gettings. There are some "cool" moments, but mostly it's tired looks of "do I have to mark all this crap down":

So I've started to alter modules. I give better loot, make mobs bit more dangerous if they look too bored in fights.

I don't have problem giving players loot they want. I often make it a quest, not shopping quest but adventuring one. Sometimes I let them shop things. Finding something "just for you" needs to be bit like chrismas, hey it's only once in a year.

 

[Noumenon]

This is another big problem with Christmas present style treasure: a dungeon master who simply rolls randomly or carelessly allots treasure ends up rewarding only the players with the most common character concepts. Fighters can always magical swords and armour. The Bard would like to find a lute or harp some day. Soon the party has a bag of holding full of +1 weapons and armour which no one will use, but some party members still have nothing which actually helps them.

I would define "Christmas present style treasure" as the kind where the DM carefully picks items he thinks the players will like -- not random rolling. Call random rolling the "treasure table" approach. That drawback you describe is definitely one of the things leaning toward the Christmas present approach, unless you think fighters getting more appropriate treasure than monks is part of the game.

Pathfinder adventures also give much less gold than before, plus since exp costs went away all spells cost gold now. I think that change was mistake.

The Pathfinder Wealth by Level table is actually 10-20% higher than 3.5, so you must be expected to get gold somewhere.

I always get disappointed faces if I run games accoringly to module gettings. There are some "cool" moments, but mostly it's tired looks of "do I have to mark all this crap down":

Oh, man, yes. Looking up the value of everything to sell is such a slog.

Finding something "just for you" needs to be bit like chrismas, hey it's only once in a year.

What would work really well is a) the "quest for ingredients" approach combined with b) you only get Christmas once a year. Maybe the DM could ask the player "what magic item would you buy if you had 20000 gp" and then put in a quest to get it or the recipe for it around three levels before the player would be able to afford it normally. The advantages are

• You get at least one treasure you're going to be excited about, with foreshadowing
• You get the choice between dropping everything to go get it or doing what you were doing
• It doesn't take over the game, it's like one quest per party member per seven character levels.

 

[hopeless]

Well...

There are lots of people who don't let the PCs shop for magic items. For this reason among other things.

The best magic item i designed was a set of earrings of which only 1 was actually in use for a Kingdoms of kalamar game i was hoping to run.

It functioned as an Disguise Self with a couple of other minor abilities intended for the player to discover during the game.

Didn't get to run the game but love the idea of magical items with unusual abilities.

Had to buy magical armour, weapon and other gear because it wasn't turning up during the game.

However the one week i was away from the game i came back to find they had equipped my character with an sentient longsword because my character spent a feat to be able to wield a bastard sword that under 3.0 rules had the sure striking ability imagine my surprise the next time I missed a session to discover the dm was asked to check what that special ability did after they had an encounter with a pair of golems!

The Ring of Mind Shielding came in very useful given my other character a sorceror had her Cloak of elvenkind immediately reassigned to the rogue once we had one join in and I missed a session you could say i was surprised nothing else happened!

Sorry but I'd love to come across something remarkable but often I'm the last one to get my hands on it the only time I got anything decent was either because my character had it made especially, bought because the dm didn't think it important or the other player didn't realise the significance ala Cloak of Protection +7 I gave to the rogue in return for a Cape of Protection +3 because my character was wearing half plate and he only had leather armour...

 

[FireLance]

I think what's going on is the same reason Christmas presents are mostly a waste of money. It's just so much more satisfying to shop for yourself than to have someone else guess what you think is cool.

It looks like you need to make better use of wish lists around Christmas. Yet another way that playing D&D can have real life benefits!

As for magic items (and Christmas presents, by the way), I think the key is exceeding the recepient's expectations. This is easy in the beginning - a new player, for example, or a child. It's also easier if magic items are not expected because they are seen as wants and not needs (and I know certain DMs like to hold this line).

I know some DMs don't like wealth by level or treasure parcel and wish list systems because they make magic items look more like mundane gear to be purchased or somehow "expected" from the DM, instead of rewards which are handed out, sometimes in a random fashion. I try to make the these expectations work for me, instead - I give the players a system which makes clear that they are getting what the system expects them to have (I had various house rules to do so in both 3e and in 4e), and then I give them additional magical items on top of that. I also pull out some of the previously-mentioned tricks to make sure that these additional magic items feel special: making them plot-relevant, making sure that they have unique abilities and cannot be found in the DMG and other books, ensuring that their abilities are mysterious and gradually revealed over time, etc.

Frankly, it makes little difference to me whether the PCs have complete control over the run-of-the-mill "magic items" that the system expects them to have. They get their fun customizing their character sheet and I am spared the hassle of second-guessing what they want (or randomly rolling) and putting the results of my guesswork (or my random rolls) into the adventure. I can focus instead on making those additional magic items (and IMO, the "real" magic items) feel special to the players.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Many of my dungeon masters did the same. The biggest problem was that what they thought was cool and useful was just silly or useless. Players always know their character better than the dungeon master. Furthermore what the dungeon master as a player thinks is a good tactical combination or fun thing to do, is often not what another player thinks.

I applaud the effort, but it often becomes a case wherein the recipient says, "Well, it's the thought that counts," with a polite forced smile on their disappointed face.

I think this boils down to player entitlement. Which makes sense for D&D, actually; you're expected to have a +X magic item to compete (4e for math, pre-4e to bypass DR, etc.). Magic items in D&D are plentiful and often interesting. When there's a guideline within the system for what you "should have" by a certain point, it makes sense that players will expect stuff, and hope for useful things.

This is where I hope 5e breaks away from magic items being assumed components of character power. If you can function with nothing, you can feel happy about the magic items you do get. You don't have 8 magic items (or 15, or whatever), all playing into the base assumptions. Even minor things, like a spoon that produces unlimited food, or a sword that can levitate small objects, become pretty cool.

And, of course, you don't have warriors that need magic to compete. I love mundane warriors with 0-1 magic items. Love them. I hope that make that mechanically viable. As always, play what you like

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Although, I'm trying this right now and it doesn't feel right. I have a PC who's a warmage with a morningstar. I figure a spell storing morningstar would let express both sides of her character at once. But I fear the way this would play out in the game. "Oh, we found a spell storing morningstar. Lily, clearly this was put in here for you." I hate this feeling, whenever it seems like the DM is being merciful or nice to the players, whether I'm the on the DM or player side of the screen.

This is why the Father Christmas DM thing doesn't work, isn't it? It's Christmas where even the giver can't feel good about giving the presents, because the receiver wanted to earn things for themself. I think this is why I really prefer buying magic items to finding them: when I pay for them myself, it doesn't feel like welfare.

Also: I think the process of deciding who the treasure is for is one of the things that makes it a lot less fun to receive. First, 2 or 3 out of four players are not excited at all because they can't use the item. Then the last player or two is like "I didn't find this personally, but we're sharing out among the party so I guess I get it." It's like every magic item is a regift from a party that doesn't want it before it gets to you.

I've got to say, Noumenon, that you've got a whole lot of hang-ups about getting loot! You don't like getting bad Xmas presents because they're not fun; you don't like getting good Xmas presents because it feels like charity; you say you'd rather buy your own presents, but your ideas seem to be focused on new ways of being gifted. Have you considered playing avante garde rpgs [that don't require loot] with a group of dedicated atheists during the holiday season?

In any case, I think the 'It's only Christmas every seven levels' is probably a good idea. I don't think this idea even requires questing for specific items -- seven levels is plenty of time to make that rare perfect item feel like a lucky break! Fill the levels in between with vanilla +X items and potions, and you're good to go!

Alternatively, I've heard some DMs create in-game justifications for telling their players "Check the WBL chart, then have at the magic item chapter!" The explanation that comes to mind is that the PCs are members of some organization that outfits them with professional magic gear from the organization's jealously guarded trove of said gear. The organization could be a guild, trade consortium, a king, or a church. I've never done this myself, but it sounds like it might satisfy all of your desires.

 

[Noumenon]

I've got to say, Noumenon, that you've got a whole lot of hang-ups about getting loot! You don't like getting bad Xmas presents because they're not fun; you don't like getting good Xmas presents because it feels like charity; you say you'd rather buy your own presents, but your ideas seem to be focused on new ways of being gifted. Have you considered playing avante garde rpgs [that don't require loot] with a group of dedicated atheists during the holiday season?

Therapy via Enworld, it's free! I view these hangups as psychological roadblocks to fun. I want to learn to either blow through them or route around them (hence all the ideas for ways to make gifting work).

My group is 100% atheists though, maybe we should have a "War on Christmas" campaign where all treasure has to be self-crafted.

"Check the WBL chart, then have at the magic item chapter!" The explanation that comes to mind is that the PCs are members of some organization that outfits them with professional magic gear from the organization's jealously guarded trove of said gear. The organization could be a guild, trade consortium, a king, or a church.

Having a sponsor is nothing new, but the idea of "bring yourself up to wealth by level!" strikes me as a really awesome reward. The whole motivation for this discussion was me trying to get treasure to a 4th-level PC who turned out to have only her starting equipment and no gold, due to party splitting or something. Micromanaging this requires so much solicitude on the part of the DM and other players to get the extra treasure to the poor one, that the idea of just bringing everyone up to par just rocks my socks. Plus, it removes the problem with new PCs being wealthier and better equipped than the rest of the group. I'm really likely to try this one.

 

[Tallifer]

I think this boils down to player entitlement.

When I am dungeon master I like to present a fantastic world and some interesting stories and possibilities. But I also want the players to have fun, and part of that fun comes from growing their characters which includes accumulating stuff.

In real life we love our friends and family and fun, but frankly speaking we also love our possessions. And the possessions we love are the things we use most or suit us best, not what someone else thought we needed most or should have. (Thanks mom for the treadmill: are you saying I am a fat slob? Thanks for hardcover Twilight book: that is not what I meant by fantastic literature, by the way.) Why would fantastic characters be any different?