I don't like the rules for sapping someone

[ChimericDream]

So I came up with something a little different. Let me know what you think. I think it scales well with players and NPCs alike, so it actually poses a challenge even at high levels. The normal rules for unconciousness state that you have to bring the person to 0 hp from subdual damage before you knock them out. But, in my opinion, the whole purpose of the sap is to be able to knock someone out in one hit (or just give them a bad headache).

To use a sap to knock out an opponent, a character must be able to hit their enemy while said enemy is unaware. In game terms, the opponent must be both flat-footed and unaware of the presence of their attacker. Rogues may add their sneak attack dice to the total amount of damage dealt. The victim must make a Fortitude save vs DC 10 + (1/2 the damage dealt, rounded down) or fall unconcious. Creatures immune to critical hits, sneak attack, or subdual damage are also immune to this knockout effect.

For example, a 10th-level rogue using a sap to knock out a guard at the entrance of a castle sneaks up behind him and successfully saps him in the back of the head, dealing a total of 19 damage. The guard makes a Fortitude save vs DC 19 (10 + (19/2 = 9.5)) and rolls a 16. The guard falls unconcious.

 

[Sound of Azure]

Interesting idea.

How about decoupling it from damage completely and using 1/2 the BAB instead?

Fort save = 10 + 1/2 BAB (+1 per dice of sneak attack or sudden strike ability)

Possibly you could use full BAB without the 10.

Also, how long should the unconsiousness last?

 

[IcyCool]

Well, you could always just use the Death Attack mechanic, with unconciousness instead of death as the result.

Still, a one-hit kill like that is pretty rough.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I am not sure of the need for changing this. After all, your 10th level Rogue dealing 19 points of damage to a guard... who is probably a 1st level Fighter with 12 hit points... is going to KO them if you use the RAW.

If you go with a minor variant of Death from Mass Damage, any single non-lethal attack that deals over 50hps or half your max hps {whichever is less} results in a Fort Save DC 5+BAB of your attacker. Failure results in taking taking non-lethal damage to the point of KO.

This gives you a ramp of skill, still allows Rogues to be better at Sapping. KO'd characters recover when they heal at least one non-lethal hp.

KO is a dangerous thing to mess with, altho it would be nice to have clean rules for it. The hazard is making it 'realistic' enough without making it the best tactic.

 

[ChimericDream]

I like the idea of using a massive damage variant or rewording the Assassin's death attack. I'll do some more work on this and repost it.

 

[Nyaricus]

in my opinion, the whole purpose of the sap is to be able to knock someone out in one hit (or just give them a bad headache).

In my opinion, great job!

I'm waiting to see what else you ahve in mind

 

[ChimericDream]

Here's another version. This one is completely reworked and taken as a straight rework of the Assassin's Death Attack. It still goes for the flavor I was looking for (namely, the target must still be unaware or not know the rogue is an enemy), and it could turn out to be more balanced than my original post.

Sap Knockout

If a rogue studies his target for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a sap and hits, the attack has the additional effect of possibly knocking the target unconcious. While studying the target, the rogue can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the rogue or recognize the rogue as an enemy. If the target of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC rogue's class level + 1 per d6 of sneak attack) against the knockout effect, she falls unconcious. The target is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 minutes plus 1 minute per level of the rogue. If the target receives 1 point of healing (such as from a cure spell), they are woken up, but take a -2 to all actions for the next 3d6 minutes. If the target's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the rogue has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the knockout attack within the next 3 rounds.

If a knockout attack is attempted and fails (the target makes her save) or if the rogue does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another knockout attack.

EDIT: Now the question is, is this a standard rogue ability, or should it be added among the special abilities that a rogue can choose from as they progress in levels?

 

[Quartz]

There's already a mechanic for this: the feat Stunning Fist. And I think it should be available to fighters and monks. After all, cold-cocking someone is quite common. Further, this should be available to low-level characters.

I'm not sure that I like the 3 rounds study - how often do you see that in movies or print?

How about:

Feat: Knockout
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike or Weapon Focus: (selected weapon), Dex 13, Wis 13.

Benefit: If a character studies his target for 3 rounds and then makes an attack with any weapon for which he has the Weapon Focus feat and does bludgeoning damage (e.g. sap, fist, club, hammer, maul) and hits, the attack has the additional effect of possibly knocking the target unconcious. While studying the target, the character can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the character or recognize the character as an enemy. The target must be flatfooted with respect to the character. If the target of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier) against the knockout effect, she falls unconcious. The target is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 minutes plus 1 minute per level of the character. If the target receives 1 point of healing (such as from a cure spell), they are woken up, but take a -2 to all actions for the next 1d6 rounds or until the target refocuses (i.e clears his head). Further healing (including Fast Healing or Regeneration) negates this penalty. If the target's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal attack. Once the character has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the knockout attack within the next 3 rounds.

If a knockout attack is attempted and fails (the target makes her save) or if the character does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another knockout attack.

Alternatively, the character may study a particular site (i.e. laying in ambush) and apply the attack to the first person entering that site. In this case, there is no time limit on study. Failure to attempt the attack means that the character must spend at least three rounds of study regaining the required concentration.

 

[ChimericDream]

The only downside to doing it this way is that it still nerfs the sap itself. The weapon is never used, and the primary reason is that it's not very useful. I'm not sure I want to require two feats for someone to be able to whap a person in the back of the head.

As for the 3 rounds of study, that's in movies all the time. You can still take minor actions, just nothing that takes a significant amount of concentration. For example, in the second Rush Hour movie, the two main characters get clocked in the skull with the butt of a gun (an impromptu sap in this case) after an approximately 18-20 second long monologue by a couple of baddies. 3 rounds of study, then whap!... lights out.