I feel like a hypocrite (CHA skills and RP)

[GoodKingJayIII]

Uhhh, intimidate I understand. But Bluff? Since when are PC's instantly able to see through even the most well thought out lie?

Ok, I kinda shot from the hip there and didn't explain myself well. You're right, PCs aren't immune to bluff. Nor certain forms of intimidate, for that matter.

I guess what I should've said is that Bluff rolls (and even Sense Motive) are generally made in secret, so players usually have no idea what to believe. A GM can give hints as to the general area of the roll, but ultimately it's the player who's got to decide what to believe.

A better example might be opposed Diplomacy rolls. No matter how consecutively or consistently an NPC wins, only the players decide whether or not their general attitude changes about the character.

 

[buzz]

A better example might be opposed Diplomacy rolls. No matter how consecutively or consistently an NPC wins, only the players decide whether or not their general attitude changes about the character.

Diplomacy rolls can't be used on PCs. Opposed Diplomacy rolls only come into play if two (N)PCs are competing to convince a third NPC of something.

 

[Michael Morris]

Diplomacy rolls can't be used on PCs. Opposed Diplomacy rolls only come into play if two (N)PCs are competing to convince a third NPC of something.

Flat Wrong. Roll a diplomacy roll before playing the character. If he rolls high play him nice and sweet. If you roll low play him like an uncharismatic dog. The players don't even have to be aware of the roll.

 

[Pbartender]

Flat Wrong. Roll a diplomacy roll before playing the character. If he rolls high play him nice and sweet. If you roll low play him like an uncharismatic dog. The players don't even have to be aware of the roll.

Actually, as far as the Written Rules™ are concerned, buzz is right...

Diplomacy (Cha)

Check
You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check; see the Influencing NPC Attitudes sidebar, below, for basic DCs. In negotiations, participants roll opposed Diplomacy checks, and the winner gains the advantage. Opposed checks also resolve situations when two advocates or diplomats plead opposite cases in a hearing before a third party.

Though, opposed Diplomacy rolls can come into effect against PCs during negotiations (like haggling over the price of someting) or when trying to convince a third party (like a court case).

But an NPC (or another PC) cannot use a Diplomacy check to influence a PC's attitude... Ever.

 

[Michael Morris]

Of course - but consider this. As DM you know what to say or bring up to change the party's attitude or get their interest. The NPC does not. You can use the roll to determine if the NPC figures out the right things to say. It's an indirect way to work the skill.

Also, I still reserve the right not to allow diplomacy rolls to work on major NPC's.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Diplomacy rolls can't be used on PCs...

That was exactly the point I was trying to make. Wow, I guess I'm really just not explaining myself well. :\

 

[Pbartender]

Of course - but consider this. As DM you know what to say or bring up to change the party's attitude or get their interest. The NPC does not. You can use the roll to determine if the NPC figures out the right things to say. It's an indirect way to work the skill.

So... You're using the NPC's Diplomacy skill to figure out what the NPC's disposition is? Doesn't that seem a little counterintuitive? And it's beside the point, anyway...

The point is that you can't have an NPC use Diplomacy to make a PC do something that his player doesn't want him to.

PCs can make (most) NPCs friendlier through the Diplomacy skill. NPCs cannot.

Also, I still reserve the right not to allow diplomacy rolls to work on major NPC's.

That I can't argue with... I generally do the same, and make it painfully obvious to the PCs who these NPCs are.

 

[Michael Morris]

Correct - the DM should never compel an action from a player character (magical spells not-withstanding). I'm not arguing for that. I'm just stating there are ways to use the social skills to affect things. Then again, I use far more complex versions of these skills in my campaign.

 

[maggot]

Correct - the DM should never compel an action from a player character (magical spells not-withstanding).

Why do people feel this way? The DM will compel your character to fall when he jumps of a bridge. No magic involved, just plain physics. Why then can't the DM compel a character to accept an offer of a free drink from a super model?

 

[Slife]

Why do people feel this way? The DM will compel your character to fall when he jumps of a bridge. No magic involved, just plain physics. Why then can't the DM compel a character to accept an offer of a free drink from a super model?

Because choosing to fall or not isn't within your character's options. The players can only control the world through one avatar - their character. Remove that control, and they might as well go read a book or watch TV.