I found my D&D passion again. 1E basic: White Plume Mountain

[Dr Midnight]

I really don't understand this post.

Well, I'm not really railing against 3E as I am against the need to have rules for every little thing. I know this is what keeps the d20 market hot and profitable (as far as an RPG market can be, I guess), but I prefer play with a skeleton crew of rules and a DM who's willing to improvise on the spot rather than flip through his books for a half hour.

I have players who thrive on rules. They love rules, and it makes D&D something of a wargame for them. One would sooner wade through his sourcebooks in silence for fifteen minutes looking for a save DC instead of spitting out a number.

That's fine if you're into that. That's just not really what I think the flavor of roleplaying SHOULD be. Roleplaying is imagination and fantastic feats. Saying "I throw my grappling hook up at the dragon's head. I hope to wrap the rope entirely around his muzzle four or five times, so he can't breathe on us, then swing on the rope across the gulch to the other side, grab Dyslexia the elf, and swing back" is the kinda thing you can't have rules for, and if you have players who LIKE having lots of rules, you have to leave ideas like this out in favor of being mindful of your five-foot steps and AoO's. That's not for me.

 

[Desdichado]

Well, when I said I didn't understand the post, I didn't really mean that literally. But, as I said, most of the complaints about 3e implicit in the post seem completely counter-intuitive to me. I'd allow exactly that if the players wanted to do it, and make some ruling on the fly on how to try it. But maybe that's just me. And players that spend 15 minutes looking for save DCs? I wouldn't allow that as a DM. I set DCs for everything the PCs try to accomplish. If there are save DCs vs. spells the PCs cast (or something like that) and the player doesn't remember what the DC is supposed to be (that's his problem, really) it's the duty of the DM to keep the game moving. I'd assign one on the fly, and if the PC doesn't like it, he can look it up for the next time he tries it.

 

[Dr Midnight]

What Doc is talking about is sheer nostalgia - grabbing the "early teens" bull by the horns, and recahrging yourself with a blast from the past!

Correct me if I'm off base, Doc.

That's pretty much what I'm talking about. Man it felt great. There was a fun to gaming when I was younger that I can't really find now, and this was like breaking out your old toy box and playing with He-Man and Lego once again.

 

[Desdichado]

That's pretty much what I'm talking about. Man it felt great. There was a fun to gaming when I was younger that I can't really find now, and this was like breaking out your old toy box and playing with He-Man and Lego once again.

OK, now that I do understand. I still keep my Legos seperate from my kids.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Was that a Challenge?

Saying "I throw my grappling hook up at the dragon's head. I hope to wrap the rope entirely around his muzzle four or five times, so he can't breathe on us, then swing on the rope across the gulch to the other side, grab Dyslexia the elf, and swing back" is the kinda thing you can't have rules for"

Lets take a crack at this:

Throwing the rope at the dragon should be a ranged touch attack. Then apply a DC to the rope use skill (Say DC 25, the DC would be lower, but the dragon is alive). A Move equivalent action for a Jump check at DC 14 to swing across (The rope reduces the DC). End of round for the player (unless there is a Haste similar effect going on).

The Dragon then gets a Str check to remove the rope, or may attack it. This may or may not be too difficult depending on the size of the dragon and the nature of the rope.

On the players turn, a DC 14 Jump check to go back accross, adding a -5 penalty for the player carrying Dyslexia the Elf.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Pielorinho]

Saying "I throw my grappling hook up at the dragon's head. I hope to wrap the rope entirely around his muzzle four or five times, so he can't breathe on us, then swing on the rope across the gulch to the other side, grab Dyslexia the elf, and swing back" is the kinda thing you can't have rules for, and if you have players who LIKE having lots of rules, you have to leave ideas like this out in favor of being mindful of your five-foot steps and AoO's. That's not for me.

Funny example -- in a recent game, a player wanted to throw her grappling hook up at the roc's foot, climb the rope as the roc flew away, shimmy up the side of the roc, and begin beating on its head.

3E made it fairly easy for me to resolve this: I ruled it as a normal ranged attack roll with a weapon with which she was unfamiliar, and she missed. If I did it again, I'd rule it as a ranged touch attack roll against a medium-sized opponent (since she was aiming at the talon, not the whole bird).

This precipitated a conversation in our group similar to what you're talking about: the player who missed with her grapple was a little sad about it, because frankly, it woulda been cool. Of course, she also probably woulda died: she was already badly hurt, and the roc could've torn her into pieces.

Because we DON'T play like we're 14 anymore, we try to avoid PC death. So we decided that in the future, I'll as a DM make such attacks likelier to succeed, but that I won't make them any less risky. I will warn players if they're trying something obviously suicidal, though, giving them a chance to back out.

***********

More on-topic, that sounds like a blast, Doctor! In January, we're going to leave off our regular, ultra-cautious PCs in RttToEE and start playing a bunch of low-level treasure-hunting maniacs, fully expecting to die over and over and over. It should be great fun, of the sort you're talking about.

Daniel

 

[Piratecat]

Tom, I'm glad we're friends. Best post ever!

 

[Dr Midnight]

Re: Was that a Challenge?

Lets take a crack at this:
Throwing the rope at the dragon should be a ranged touch attack...

Excellent. That's pretty much how I'd try to do it, and I think it doesn't discourage heroic, over-the-top actions like this. I'm not saying you can't do it, but most players I see seem more concerned about what they can do within the established rules, instead of thinking up a solution that would challenge the DM to make something like this up.

Tom, I'm glad we're friends. Best post ever!

Gimme a hug you big furry scourge of the seas. Sniffle.

Hey, howsabout that for an ENworld game day idea, PC? the ENworld Boston "thirteen again" 1E basic game day, set in a classic 1e module, with old dice and bottles of soda. Maturity discouraged. Adults outright flogged. How's that sound?

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Clap, clap, clap!!!!


Great post! That's the kind of feel we go for every session at the table. We have no use for amateur theater in our games.

 

[jmucchiello]

Nitpick: The red basic book is not 1st edition AD&D. It is 1st edition D&D. It is not Gygax's baby, I believe it was written by Tom Moldvay. S2: White Plume Mountain is an AD&D (1st edition) module. While there were very similar in design there are a few niggly problems with using them together. AC starts a 9 in D&D and at 10 in AD&D for one thing.

I don't understand why people aren't having fun with the new rules. Basic D&D left a lot of rules in the hands of DM fiat. Now at least DM fiat is given direction toward the skill list and d20 roll against a DC.