Pathfinder 1E I get the feeling Paizo isn't worried about Wizards of the Coast.

I think the premise is a bit off, which is that Pathfinder and D&D 5e are mutually exclusive - not just the purchasing of products, but the usefulness across games. Enterprising DMs use material from a wide variety of sources, including different editions of the same game. I would think that if 5e turns out to be what they intended from the get-go, adapting Pathfinder material for a 5e game will be relatively easy.

Tabletop gaming is not only a hobby of play, but for quite a few, also a hobby of collecting. Not to mention that many gamers cross-pollinate with different games, especially different versions of the same game. And yes, there are folks who buy both Paizo and WotC product, and use both in their D&D game.

I'll use myself as an example. I played 3e until 2003, when I took a five-year or so hiatus from active playing and didn't start up again until 2008, after 4e came out. I played 4e for about four years and haven't played in almost a year, but am starting up a 5e campaign in January. I don't play Pathfinder because it is too much like 3.5e, and I prefer a simpler game, and one not so focused on system mastery. That said, I buy Pathfinder products selectively - mainly Golarion setting books, but also a few adventure paths and hardcovers - because a) I like Paizo and think they make a great product, b) I enjoy collecting setting books and Golarion is the most in-depth ongoing setting in the biz right now, and c) I want to mine their products for ideas for my own campaign, even considering adapting Runelords or Shattered Star for my 5e campaign.

The larger issue, though, is the almost jingoistic nationalism that is exhibited in your post, ForeverSlayer - as if we have to pick sides, and as if there is some kind of merit or pay-off in actively trying to put WotC down and turn people away from 5e. This is akin to trying to win the battle without any awareness about the larger war. The battle is WotC vs. Paizo; the war is the health of the hobby, in paticular D&D. I'm guessing (or hoping) that the folks at WotC and Paizo realize that the battle actually negatively impacts the war, and thus both are rooting for each other.

I realize that there are a few embittered folks who will hate anything WotC comes out with, but I'm fairly certain that the majority of gamers will at least give 5e a look, and are interested in the health of the community and industry as a whole.

I think Paizo will do just fine, although I would be surprised if they aren't accounting for a slight dip when 5e comes out in terms of their active player base. The simple fact of the matter is that Pathfinder is a rules heavy 3.5 variant, and that isn't every D&D player's cup o' tea. I'm guessing that some Pathfinder players aren't in love with the system itself, but play it because 4e isn't being developed anymore, and/or they like Paizo, or any number of other reasons. This isn't to put Pathfinder down at all, just to say that it speaks to a relatively specific crowd of D&D players.

But there are also a larger number of Pathfinder enthusiasts who wouldn't switch back to D&D even if 5e was a revised 3.5e, and there are probably quite a few who will keep their subscriptions, even if they buy 5e books and give the game a shot. But any loss in players to 5e in the short-term will, in the long-term, be offset by 5e being a quality game. Dungeons & Dragons is, and likely always will be, the flagship for tabletop RPGs. If D&D is healthy and thriving, then chances are the industry as a whole is healthy and thriving. Actually, 5e being a smash success may actually benefit Paizo in the long run.

@Morrus , there are small rodents on Alpha Centauri? Link, please.

I'm not trying to rally the troops in order to take sides. I'm basically just stating what I see and what I think the problem is. WotC had this really cocky attitude during the past edition and look where it got them. If people can play both then that's great, and I'm sure there are people who will, but as of right now I wouldn't play both. D&D Next has too much 4th edition in it for me to enjoy. Once again, if we had gotten the true modularity they had proposed then I could just leave those elements out and play the game how I want.

I hate to see D&D going in the direction it has been going, it saddens me to see a game that introduced me to role playing take two turns in the opposite direction of where I want to go.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I don't know what it is, but I get the feeling that Wizards of the Coast are worried about Paizo and Pathfinder, but Paizo isn't worried about Wizards of the Coast. I've never really gotten the impression that Paizo is trying to pull customers away from D&D over to Pathfinder. It's like the company is so comfortable in their own skin that they just continue forward without a care in the world what Wizards does.

Now I could be wrong entirely, but that is the impression I am under.

I'm sure Paizo watches WotC's moves as closely as anyone else. And I'm sure there's some concern about what Next's performance will mean for Pathfinder. I think a Next that does anything but tank will probably cut into PF sales. But who can predict how much? Paizo's best play is almost certainly to go on doing just what they're doing: producing excellent adventures, producing interesting supplements for their campaign setting, and producing interesting expansions for their implementation of the d20 game core.

And if D&D Next is highly successful AND is similar enough to older styles of D&D AND has a positive-enough license to satisfy writers, we may see dual system or Next-compatible materials coming from Paizo. They're smart and flexible enough to respond to and make use of opportunities as they arise.
 

So Paizo, who's entire schtick is based on getting the people who liked 3e but not 4e to switch to Pathfinder isn't worried about getting people to switch to PF from D&D?

They did that already.
 

Corporations aren't people. WotC wasn't cocky, PF isn't confident, etc.
I think the days of one edition's prominence is long over, and 5E doing well is good for Paizo, and PF doing well is good for WotC.
If Wizards were doing a 3.75, with the intent of wiping Paizo out, that would be something else. But they're not, they're moving forward - whatever that means
 

Corporations aren't people. WotC wasn't cocky, PF isn't confident, etc.
I think the days of one edition's prominence is long over, and 5E doing well is good for Paizo, and PF doing well is good for WotC.
If Wizards were doing a 3.75, with the intent of wiping Paizo out, that would be something else. But they're not, they're moving forward - whatever that means


Wizards would never do a 3.75 because that would expose them as being wrong back when they came out with 4th edition. Wizards has already crossed that bridge and completely destroyed it in the process.

Not sure how Next doing good would be good for Paizo.
 

Wizards would never do a 3.75 because that would expose them as being wrong back when they came out with 4th edition. Wizards has already crossed that bridge and completely destroyed it in the process.

Not sure how Next doing good would be good for Paizo.
I don't see how a 3.75 would expose them as wrong any differently than 5E, nor have they burned any bridges. Indeed the reprints show a move away from slash-and-burn.
5E doing well brings people into FLGS, increases interest in the hobby, and I think everybody sees a bump. More players is good, and when the PF tables are beside the 5E, and the OSR tables, everybody wins.
 

I'm not trying to rally the troops in order to take sides. I'm basically just stating what I see and what I think the problem is. WotC had this really cocky attitude during the past edition and look where it got them. If people can play both then that's great, and I'm sure there are people who will, but as of right now I wouldn't play both. D&D Next has too much 4th edition in it for me to enjoy. Once again, if we had gotten the true modularity they had proposed then I could just leave those elements out and play the game how I want.

I hate to see D&D going in the direction it has been going, it saddens me to see a game that introduced me to role playing take two turns in the opposite direction of where I want to go.

WotC has had the same attitude towards 4e as it did for 3e when 3e was around. WotC's attitude's on what it's doing hadn't changed...though perhaps players perceptions had.

Now whether that is a cocky attitude or something else, is probably up for debate, but WotC's attitudes basically were the same, people's perceptions of how to interpret those attitudes are what changed FOR SOME people.
 

I think you're half right. I agree that Paizo don't appear at all worried about WotC. However, WotC have been very clear that they're not worried about Paizo either, and I see no reason to doubt them.

One key thing to remember is that the two companies are in almost completely different worlds - Paizo's concern is, primarily, about selling subscriptions to Adventure Paths; WotC's is about selling the D&D brand as a whole, of which the D&D TTRPG is only a tiny part.

Indeed. Wizards certainly wants to win back some of the fans who left for Pathfinder, and they'd like to snag a chunk of the old-school market as well, but I don't think they are worried about Paizo; the damage is done. Pathfinder is not going to cut any further into WotC's player base than it already has. I know there's a lot of dissatisfaction among 4E fans with the direction of Next, but how many of those dissatisfied 4E players are going to migrate to Pathfinder? If they go anywhere, it will be to a 4E clone*, and that clone won't be made by Paizo.

If I were Mike Mearls, I would be talking quietly with the Paizo folks about the possibility of cooperating to produce 5E versions of Paizo's adventure paths. Adventure quality has always been WotC's deadly weakness and Paizo's greatest strength. If 5E takes off, both Paizo and Wizards could benefit greatly from such a move. Paizo would gain the ability to sell its adventure paths to the 5E player base, and Wizards would have some of the best adventure writers in the market producing content for them again.

[SIZE=-2]*The lack of an OGL for 4E does not preclude making a clone of the game. You can't copyright mechanics. Between that and the 3E OGL, it would be quite possible to create a functional clone of 4E. Whether anyone will actually do so remains to be seen.[/SIZE]
 
Last edited:


If I were Mike Mearls, I would be talking quietly with the Paizo folks about the possibility of cooperating to produce 5E versions of Paizo's adventure paths. Adventure quality has always been WotC's deadly weakness and Paizo's greatest strength. If 5E takes off, both Paizo and Wizards could benefit greatly from such a move. Paizo would gain the ability to sell its adventure paths to the 5E player base, and Wizards would have some of the best adventure writers in the market producing content for them again.

That would almost certainly come down to licensing and that, unfortunately, seems to be entirely out of the control of Wizards' creative department. I'd love to hear the inside scoop on the license wrangling that occurred in the run-up to 4e (I've heard it's pretty bad). And I wonder if Hasbro learned anything from it, because if they haven't and don't produce a more favorable license, I can't see Paizo participating
 

Remove ads

Top