I hate Chaotic Neutral

Li Shenron said:
I'm afraid I cannot help, because your idea that CN = lack of motivation is very alien to me, and IMHO personal gain has nothing to do with it. In fact, I consider CN and CG the correct representation of RL ecology activists, animal rights activists, pacifist protesters, revolutionaries (when they side with the poor) and others, which isn't at all about personal gain! :D
Very sharp; I agree that CN would embody these roles.

Is this illustrating that selfishness is not in the chaos to law axis?
 

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kolikeos said:
when i think about CN adventurer i think something on the lines of:
someone who goes out on adventures for adventures sake, bashing monsters and taking their stuff is really alot of fun, you get to go to interesting places and acquire lots of power and wealth, he just goes where he wants to instead of going where the would be 'quest givers' send him to, he doesn't give a damn about other people he just wants to find excitement wherever he goes, he wouldn't normally help people out of kindness and wouldn't normally kill people out of cruelty, he follows his own agenda which might be as simple as 'have fun and exiting adventures'.

Wulf Ratbane's Story Hour. (Sorry, no link handy.)

I always thought I was playing CN "right."

The DM felt I was CG, because I chose to 'prey' exclusively on evil-doers (which I always simply rationalized as, "Not antagonizing my good colleagues, who will save my bacon if I need it." And I needed it a lot.)
 

I'm not so fond of CN myself.

However, there's a guy in my games who always plays CN. What I've found works is that if he's CN and the rest of the party leans towards good, then their opponents will usually be LE. Evil empires, corrupt officials, and slave traders are all good targets. People who have power, or who take advantage of an empowering system are ripe to be taken to town. The rest of the party will stop them because they're evil. He stops them because they're 'the man'.
 

In games I run, I ban Evil alignments (PC's are supposed to be heroic, not villainous), and in my experience, people who ask to play Evil alignments typically want to do so so they can kill or steal from the other players supposedly with justification, or to be as utterly ruthless and amoral as possible. I remember one player who insisted on only ever playing LE PC's, saying that all other alignments were "too restrictive" (he never played in my games, that's for certain).

Chaotic Neutral, I treat with great caution. It's not an excuse to just do anything you feel like, good or and call it justified. Most people I've seen try to play CN actually are playing CE. I'll allow somebody to play it, if I think they can play it responsibly, as a free spirit who does as they please (but not as a justified license to do anything and get away with it), not hurting too many people along the way, or doing too much good. Very few players I let play CN characters.

The DM restricting alignments isn't stepping on player toes, as long as they leave plenty of choices left. A DM has every right to ban evil PC's, but specifying that every PC must be Lawful Good may chafe against most groups.
 

As someone who rates between Chaotic Good and Chaotic Evil on most alignment tests, I'm going to state that, IMO, people's methods of playing CN are pretty crappy in general.

Chaotic can be flighty, but it isn't always. Chaotic Neutrals are often freedom fighters, but ones who don't always look to the common good before going into the fight. Sure, there has to be some motivation for me to do something, but as a good player, I'LL be the one to make sure it is there, its not the job of the DM to put it there.

Being CN doesn't mean I don't value friendship, even CE character value friendship - in fact, one of the things that can make a CE person Evil is the way they treat their friends... do you believe that your friends deserve better treatment than other people? Great! Not a very "good" outlook, but definitely one that suits adventuring VERY well. So, when my friends get involved in a gig, adventure, etc, I go along because they are my friends. That's not lawful, that's human. I may not go along with everything they want, but more likely, I just don't get along with local legalities and regulations, and still pay at least lip service to the 'house rules' of my friends.

My chaotic characters are far from disruptive. But then again, I like to consider myself a good gamer, and I play the character to be one that works with a party.

So, for those of you who know me, I'm chaotic, now ask your players why they insist on being Chaotic Annoying or Chaotic Disruptive instead of Chaotic Neutral.
 

Melkor said:
What about CE?


First, Hello, Melkor!

I think chaotic evil characters would be willing to go along with a group of people for a common goal, such as crossing a dangerous mountain pass. However, it should be emphasized that chaotic alignments stress a lot on individualism and differ largely on the degree of rights that others deserve. A chaotic good character generally would insist that everyone in a society should enjoy the same rights and should act responsibly towards each other as individuals. Indeed, a chaotic good character might argue that only by allowing individuals to have rights that their choices can have meaning. By contrast, chaotic evil characters generally seem to believe that individual desires justify any actions, and talk of rights are the folly of the weak. Mind you, a chaotic evil character may serve a more powerful master, but generally out of fear or a desire for long term advancement. Perhaps a chaotic evil character might believe in a form of Social Darwinism, arguing that the individuals who are most competent rise to the top, while others sink to the bottom.

A chaotic neutral character generally is not much concerned about matters of morality, but should have some limits on what such a character considers justifiable. This is probably something for a DM and players to work on, as in the matter of all alignments. (Alignments can be impacted by such matters as faith and culture. Also, a good or lawful aligned individual can be as complex as those of chaotic alignment. I do not believe that playing CN necessarily requires a more adult individual, as I have seen some very self-willed individuals prove to not always act in their long term interests. From my observations, actions tend to have consequences in the real world. I would argue the same would be true of a good campaign. (Thanee says rightly that there are examples of mature and immature ways of playing alignments. For example, one character may follow a code because he or she is told to do so while another may agree with that code based on his observations of the world, experiences, and deeply held beliefs. I have seen people play CN, LG, and other alignments well and badly. There are paladins and there are paladims..) A chaotic neutral character would likely relate to many situations on a case by case basis. There may be some people whom such a character always responds to in a given manner because of deeply held personal beliefs. For example, a CN character may have a soft spot for those he or she considers downtrodden in his homeland. He or she may not react the same in another country. The character may not actively seek harm to people at random, but may at times seem indifferent to the plight of some people while interested in the plight of others.

Chaotic neutral is not a license that allows everything. However, a CN character may decided to obey a law if it makes sense, not just because it is a law. Many matters should be judged on a case by case basis, but there are probably at least some people to whom a CN feels an individual connection. This may make the character seem very self-interested to others, but a CN character might respond that one should make decisions on a case-by-case basis. Perhaps a good question for a player of a CN character to ask is what matters to that character and why?
 


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