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D&D General I hate five-foot passages!

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Sure, but if the DM knows this is an issue for him (or his players' understanding of "fun") then he can change it as it is revealed or during prep since presumably the DM knows what is in the room.
The image in the OP looks like the map is one image rather than something that they could simply move a few bits around. Even if it was more modular it gets complicated when everything needs to be reshuffled to accommodate. Even just stretching a static image to widen hallways can make a mess because then you have terrain clutter and various obstacles also enlarged in ways that can cause trouble. All combined, the OP's post is an example of why the tactical rules are so important to get right.
 

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For those who are complaining that large slaadi shouldn't be in a room with such small doors, after finding where this is in the module, they (a) didn't build this place, and (b) came through a planar rift that's on the west side of the room that's not visible on the map at the start of the thread and haven't moved beyond this room presumably due, at least in part, to the narrow doorways.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Sorry, but not every combat is going to be an open-field jamboree for the players/PCs and thus not every character is going to be able to participate in every combat. Tight quarters are a fact of life sometimes. Deal with it.

As for the OP's example of the Slaadi being too big for the space: they're not. They can fit through the door and halls by squeezing a bit, meaning their presence in that room (which is more than big enough for them, it seems) is quite reasonable, if perhaps unexpected. The narrow door gives them a wonderful positional advantage over the attacking PCs; the PCs in turn need to somehow generate a distraction behind the Slaadi (e.g. someone Dimension Doors in there and makes a lot of noise?) to draw them away from the door, and then swarm in.
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
Sorry, but not every combat is going to be an open-field jamboree for the players/PCs and thus not every character is going to be able to participate in every combat. Tight quarters are a fact of life sometimes. Deal with it.

As for the OP's example of the Slaadi being too big for the space: they're not. They can fit through the door and halls by squeezing a bit, meaning their presence in that room (which is more than big enough for them, it seems) is quite reasonable, if perhaps unexpected. The narrow door gives them a wonderful positional advantage over the attacking PCs; the PCs in turn need to somehow generate a distraction behind the Slaadi (e.g. someone Dimension Doors in there and makes a lot of noise?) to draw them away from the door, and then swarm in.
The players were fine. The slaadi were not. The result was a very, very boring combat where the slaadi could only attack with disadvantage, and the players had advantage to hit them... or the slaadi didn't attack at all and the players ranged combat them to death.

If the slaadi had a ranged attack or area attack, then everything changes - the players are incentivised to enter the room. But this is not the case.

And the purpose of the room? It's to fight the slaadi. It's very clear in the adventure text.

This is the same adventure that put grimlocks (without missile weapons) in a room with arrow slits that the party could see through. Guess what isn't affected by cover? Casting fireball through an arrow slit.
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
For those who are complaining that large slaadi shouldn't be in a room with such small doors, after finding where this is in the module, they (a) didn't build this place, and (b) came through a planar rift that's on the west side of the room that's not visible on the map at the start of the thread and haven't moved beyond this room presumably due, at least in part, to the narrow doorways.
A blind adherence to Verisimilitude does not make for entertaining combats.
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
I don't know the module in question, but I was going to suggest this- it's good to design encounters such that monsters or bad guys who are away from the front have a way to come around and engage from the rear.

EDIT: Gotta Jacquays that dungeon!
Funnily enough, that was an option I did do that. There is another way around.

But it's another five-foot-wide corridor. The slaad was sad.

Sad Slaad.

Cheers,
Merric
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
The players were fine. The slaadi were not. The result was a very, very boring combat where the slaadi could only attack with disadvantage, and the players had advantage to hit them... or the slaadi didn't attack at all and the players ranged combat them to death.
Only because the referee made the mistake of putting the slaadi in the narrow hallway. Nothing that wants to survive is going to make that kind of mistake. If the referee doesn't treat the monsters as imbeciles, then things aren't generally so one sided.
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
In this particular scenario, is there any reason for the Slaad to not just stand on either side of the door and beat on the guy standing there? If the PC backs up then it just depends on whether anyone can do more than 10 points of damage per round (the slaads regenerate) when most PCs will have a hard time seeing them. Or just close the door. Presumably there's something in the room that the PCs need.

In general, if I set up this type of room I would put the McGuffin further into the room and give the slaad at least an option to hide behind total cover while still being able to attack. Or, of course, have wider hallways. :)
This is a level 9 party. The rogue on his own is dealing 6d6+6 damage every turn, and focused fire from the rest of group is doing more on top of that.

Closing the door wanders into a lot of problems with rules interpretations. I posted about it before, but in a little more detail: at what point do you move from readied actions to roll initiative again?

If you start an encounter where both sides are aware of the others presence, do you allowed readied actions before initiative begins? The answer is "no". You must move into initiative.

Now, when do you drop out of initiative?

If both sides have been sitting looking at the door for five minutes, has initiative stopped?

(This is also turning into a really boring combat as both sides are waiting for someone to open the door).

Door opens... but both sides have readied actions. Who acts first?

(And honestly, a good trick is the AC 20+ Paladin takes the Dodge action, moves up to open the door, then moves back).

And we're going through all these tactical and rules convolutions to deal with a situation that is just making the combat drawn out. It's not really an interesting tactical puzzle.

Cheers,
Merric
 

Zaukrie

New Publisher
Only because the referee made the mistake of putting the slaadi in the narrow hallway. Nothing that wants to survive is going to make that kind of mistake. If the referee doesn't treat the monsters as imbeciles, then things aren't generally so one sided.
What a rude comment....there aren't 10 foot hallways in this area at all.
 

Shiroiken

Legend
It doesn't work that well. When the door is closed, both sides just sit there looking at it. When it opens, often you just have to reroll initiative.

(Yes, you could conceivably ready an attack against the poor fool opening it - but every other character has readied an attack/spell. And if a character opens it, they can prepare spells knowing they won't be lost from a readied round ending...)

It doesn't lead to fun play.
"Fun play" is usually a casualty of strategy/tactics. As a grognard, I recall when rolling initiative was a failure, since you should have avoided/defeated the enemy beforehand. In this case, the players could totally rush the room and have a "fun combat."

Wait a minute. How has your fighter got +9 Athletics/Acrobatics fighting against CR 5 creatures?

That feels very high to be fighting CR 5 creatures.
I'm working up a level 18 adventure and they'll be facing a few CR 5 creatures. According to TCE, two CR 5 creatures are an appropriate challenge for one 18th level character. I was extremely surprised by this, so we'll see how it goes.

This was a virtue of 3.0 having Large height creatures like Ogres still only take up a 5' square on the map.
It's worse when dealing with AD&D maps, since they didn't really have size categories, and the space assumptions were different (a 10ft square could hold 9 fighting humanoids). For example, Against the Giants had multiple huge creatures living in 20x20 rooms.
 

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