"I hate math"

[pogre]

Just to be clear, I was speaking about a Warhammer character in my post, not a D&D character. The "Lv4 Wizard/Lv4 Elementalist/Lv2 Illusionist + 2-3 other basic careers" is not in any way equivalent to a multiclass character in 3e D&D. 4th level is the highest level you can reach as a spellcaster in Warhammer, and ONLY spellcasting careers even have levels, everybody else just moves on to a new career once they complete their previous one in order to advance.

Ourph - that's an unbelievably high experience character in WFRP! What did everybody else spend their experience on?

IMO WFRP absolutely has a ceiling for most adventure groups where the fighter types simply cannot spend anymore experience and the magic users are just getting warmed up.

On the other hand, I agree there is far too much math in higher level D&D. It just requires a lot more advanced prep as suggested by other posters. A lot of my friends, including some well known game designers, refuse to run the game above 12th level for this and many other reasons. I grit my teeth and suffer through the math to play the higher levels, because I like the way the game changes on other levels.

 

[SSquirrel]

This is why I refuse to DM 3.x any longer. If I have to use a spreadsheet to keep track of stuff while running, that sort of turns what should be "fun" into "work" AFAIC.

When running Warhammer or Basic D&D I need 1 rulebook, my DM's screen, some dice, a pencil and either a published adventure or a few pages of hand-written notes. That's it.

So yeah, put me in the "I hate math (while gaming)" camp.

That's nothing man. 2 friends of mine made a spreadsheet for character CREATION for Rolemaster. Took it from a 4 hour process (w/all the classes and such to look thru as well as Talent Law, gods forbid ya make a mage) to an hour and a half one. Course the printed character sheet was anywhere from 17 to 60 pages long or so once you had your weapon and spell charts.

The generators he's mentioning most likely just reduce the pregame work needed to him hitting a few buttons during the game. BAM! Instant statistics he doesn't have to roll up himself.

Hagen

 

[Acid_crash]

It's true the game gets more complicated as levels increase, but most of the math is done before the actual gaming, and written on the character sheets. So actual play has always been pretty fast.
..

I often hear complaints about math being a problem in games, but not for d20. More times than not, it's a complaints against the HERO system, not D&D. I just think it's funny that someone is complaining about the math in D&D.

And it's true that in the majority of rpg's, the math problem is usually before the game actually gets played, so if math becomes a problem during the game, then plan ahead and get the math figured before it begins.

 

[Acid_crash]

One of the problems might be that it was a con game. I've run a few games with pre-generated high-level PCs and seen this each time. Both the players and the DM aren't used to the details of the characters. If you have been playing or DMing a PC from 1st level up through 12th, you know all of that PCs capabilities. You probably have extensive notes about his favorite tactics and therefore all his bonuses. If you a playing a 12th level character just handed to you, it's quite a bit harder. You need to become familiar with that character's abilities--especially if whoever created the character built in a lot of complicated feat/skill/item combinations.

You would be surprised how many players still don't know what their character can do after playing it for so long a time. There are players who just don't pay attention, who don't care, and who don't try to understand what all their characters can do.

We've been playing from 2nd level to almost 5th now...we have 7 people, 4 of which still don't know how to add their dexterity/strength modifier to their bab without looking each and every single time they roll for combat, and half the time they still have to ask what to roll when the GM asks for a skill check or a attack roll.

Some players are just lazy, and despite the ease in which these situations could be helped, some just don't care.

 

[Someone]

My campaing reached level 12, and I agree the game becomes more complex, simply because the number of feats, magic items, spell, etc available increase. Still, I don´t have problems with math, even when my players don´t have the books and don´t know the rules very well.

What I found difficult to handle is to remember and use all the monsters options, abilities, spell-like abilities... I asked for advice in this forum and had several very useful.

 

[Ourph]

Ourph - that's an unbelievably high experience character in WFRP! What did everybody else spend their experience on?

IMO WFRP absolutely has a ceiling for most adventure groups where the fighter types simply cannot spend anymore experience and the magic users are just getting warmed up.

You're right. At some point in a WFRP game, anyone who's not a spellcaster gets to a point where they can't really advance anymore while the casters are still getting better (at least in terms of spell selection, after you max out magic points in one casting class, you can't gain anymore).

I've tried playing where the non-caster types just stagnate and it's not too bad. Really the casters aren't getting that much better, and the fact that the characters keep gaining more magic items and more treasure offsets the lack of progress in terms of character improvement.

However, I have also played with houserules that allow characters who have completed a certain number of careers to simply buy advances in attributes one point at a time (100XP each for base 100 attributes and 1000XP each for base 10 attributes). So, for example, a Warrior with a Weapon Skill of 64 could spend 300XP and bump that WS up to 67. I usually put a cap of 80-85 on attributes though. This is similar to high level characters in AD&D gaining only single HP after a certain level.

Playing that way, the campaign can basically run forever without anyone maxing everything out. It gives the casters time to really shine while everybody else gets to keep seeing improvements with their characters.

 

[ashockney]

I love math, personally.

I love high level D&D. I love how the game plays, and the challenge/options become far more complex.

I'm disappointed by the fact that multiple players would be frustrated and turned off by the mathmatical complexity of this great game.

Does anyone have any ideas to share (or that they've tried) to improve the ease and use of high level game play, without adding to the complexity?

What other pitfalls have you run into?

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

When they players began to have "hot sheets" of four or five pages and I felt more like a stat counter than a DM we quit 3e. I'm interested in seeing what C&C is doing with d20 to make it a simpler game to play, and hopefully DM.

Added: Our game got up to 12-13th level characters and it was obvious the problems we had were just going to increase as the levels got higher.

 

[Silver Moon]

"Math is hard, let's go shopping!" - Barbie*






*When Mattel released a talking Barbie who offered that bit of teenage wisdom, public reaction was so furious they pulled her off the shelves. Mattel is still trying to recover from the PR disaster.

 

[Nifft]

"Math is hard, let's go shopping!" - Barbie*

... or my players when they finally get back to town.

-- N