"I hate math"

[cignus_pfaccari]

You would be surprised how many players still don't know what their character can do after playing it for so long a time. There are players who just don't pay attention, who don't care, and who don't try to understand what all their characters can do.

We've been playing from 2nd level to almost 5th now...we have 7 people, 4 of which still don't know how to add their dexterity/strength modifier to their bab without looking each and every single time they roll for combat, and half the time they still have to ask what to roll when the GM asks for a skill check or a attack roll.

Some players are just lazy, and despite the ease in which these situations could be helped, some just don't care.

That's understandable when starting out, or when you're playing something you've never played before. But...dang it, it doesn't take *that* much effort to write everything down!

The most prep work I wind up doing is making an item card to keep my magic items written out, inventoried, and keep pertinent data...like, what my attack bonus is with this weapon, how much damage it does, etc. Granted, I have to update that when I level, but that's easily enough accomplished, and it doesn't take much longer than it does for people who don't have their character advancement already plotted out.

Another little trick I have is using dice as counters, to graphically depict how much I'm putting into Power Attack and Combat Expertise...to both demonstrate to observers that I'm not cheating, and also to remind myself in case I forget.

Then again, I also used to, when playing M:tG, use d6s for base-6 numbers to represent my life total. :-D

Brad

 

[Umbra]

"I hate math."

Actually, the problem isn't the math (which is simple addition and subtraction), it's the rule complexity and knowing what applies to each character or NPC when and in what situation. I agree that keeping track of it can bog the game right down when compared to earlier versions of DnD. Add in feats and spells from non-core book sources = boggled brain.

While running a game with 15th to 18th level PC's (first time we have reached so high) where the players all do their homework there is invariably some modifier we miss or miss apply during combat.

[half tongue in cheek] Of course non-ENWorlders (= less committed / less knowledgable/ less ) newbies, casual gamers and the like have little hope in keeping up.

My partner is about to join a 5th level game I play in for his first RPG experience. He doesn't read much, won't spend hours pouring over the books tweaking his character and hasn't been playing for 20 years like some of the other gamers. I suspect it will be a while before he gets the basics down, let alone some of the complexities, and I will probably be spending alot of my time going over his character sheet with him.

Which brings us back to a rules lite game for newbies which may be solution for those who hate 3.x complexity...a whole 'nuther topic.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

When they players began to have "hot sheets" of four or five pages and I felt more like a stat counter than a DM we quit 3e. I'm interested in seeing what C&C is doing with d20 to make it a simpler game to play, and hopefully DM.

What were they putting on these hot sheets? I can't think of anything that goes over the two pages of the standard character sheet, aside from spells, and heck, if I really wanted, I could fit everything I needed for a fighter or rogue on one page.

Even spells only take up a page, and while I think it's pretty easy to remember spells you use all the time, it's also not hard to look them up when you need them.

Brad

 

[Ourph]

What were they putting on these hot sheets? I can't think of anything that goes over the two pages of the standard character sheet, aside from spells, and heck, if I really wanted, I could fit everything I needed for a fighter or rogue on one page.

I once sat down and started writing out all the different AC permutations for my 3.5 11th level Wizard so that I could just look at them rather than calculate them during the game.

After the 28th combination I stopped because I could tell looking at all the different permutations was going to be just as inconvenient as doing the math at the table.

At this point, I purposely restrict the defensive spells I cast during combat to a few effective but more convenient ones because I don't want to have to deal with all the hassle. I'm not quite as safe as I would be otherwise, but I sure as heck enjoy myself a lot more.

 

[ashockney]

Actually, the problem isn't the math (which is simple addition and subtraction), it's the rule complexity and knowing what applies to each character or NPC when and in what situation. I agree that keeping track of it can bog the game right down when compared to earlier versions of DnD. Add in feats and spells from non-core book sources = boggled brain.

While running a game with 15th to 18th level PC's (first time we have reached so high) where the players all do their homework there is invariably some modifier we miss or miss apply during combat.

[half tongue in cheek] Of course non-ENWorlders (= less committed / less knowledgable/ less ) newbies, casual gamers and the like have little hope in keeping up.

My partner is about to join a 5th level game I play in for his first RPG experience. He doesn't read much, won't spend hours pouring over the books tweaking his character and hasn't been playing for 20 years like some of the other gamers. I suspect it will be a while before he gets the basics down, let alone some of the complexities, and I will probably be spending alot of my time going over his character sheet with him.

Which brings us back to a rules lite game for newbies which may be solution for those who hate 3.x complexity...a whole 'nuther topic.

Do we have to give up the beauty of all that makes D&D great just to not have "mind boggling" complexity? Is there a way to get MORE of what we love, while simplifying the GAME?

We've heard two clear suggestions:
More prep work in advance (write them down)
Simplify the character sheets/DM Prep to include the key variables.

 

[jeffh]

I once sat down and started writing out all the different AC permutations for my 3.5 11th level Wizard so that I could just look at them rather than calculate them during the game.

After the 28th combination I stopped because I could tell looking at all the different permutations was going to be just as inconvenient as doing the math at the table.

As far as I can tell, you shouldn't need more than four; normal, flat-footed, touch, both. Or are you talking about adding spells to the picture? If so that seems like just making work for yourself; precalculate one or two really common ones, sure, but surely you can add a one-digit number to your AC on the fly when you cast a defensive spell? Use sticky notes or something if memory is the problem.

 

[Umbra]

Do we have to give up the beauty of all that makes D&D great just to not have "mind boggling" complexity? Is there a way to get MORE of what we love, while simplifying the GAME?

Ah! Now we are getting to the real question. What is it that you love and want more of? Then we can decide which aspects we can simplify without ruining the game.

 

[jeffh]

Some of my players have trouble with remebering all the modifiers and the like, even though they do a reasonable job of having the important ones precalculated and on their character sheet. One prefers high-level play but has complaints about the level treadmill; all of them get confused about bonus types and tend to err on the conservative side when it comes to what gets multiplied on a critical hit (even though I've explained the rule many times - numerical additions do, extra dice don't). A few occasionally confuse themselves about iterative attacks, an important issue at high levels.

I'm looking for ways to cut down on this at high levels. One thing I'll definitely want to implement is a major change to multiple attacks. Instead of getting extra attacks at lower and lower hit probabilities as you level, all characters at all levels will have options similar to the Monk's Flurry of Blows, only these will start out more heavily penalized. Feats will let you reduce the penalties for particular weapons (characters will overall have more Feats too, so this won't add undue strain; I definitely think characters get too few Feats now).

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

all of them get confused about bonus types and tend to err on the conservative side when it comes to what gets multiplied on a critical hit (even though I've explained the rule many times - numerical additions do, extra dice don't). A few occasionally confuse themselves about iterative attacks, an important issue at high levels.

If I have a potentially confusing crit situation, I write out, in advance, what the crit damage is. Though part of that is I like seeing big numbers on my character sheet, as I can do the multiplication in my head the vast majority of the time.

Brad

 

[ashockney]

Some of my players have trouble with remebering all the modifiers and the like, even though they do a reasonable job of having the important ones precalculated and on their character sheet. One prefers high-level play but has complaints about the level treadmill; all of them get confused about bonus types and tend to err on the conservative side when it comes to what gets multiplied on a critical hit (even though I've explained the rule many times - numerical additions do, extra dice don't). A few occasionally confuse themselves about iterative attacks, an important issue at high levels.

I'm looking for ways to cut down on this at high levels. One thing I'll definitely want to implement is a major change to multiple attacks. Instead of getting extra attacks at lower and lower hit probabilities as you level, all characters at all levels will have options similar to the Monk's Flurry of Blows, only these will start out more heavily penalized. Feats will let you reduce the penalties for particular weapons (characters will overall have more Feats too, so this won't add undue strain; I definitely think characters get too few Feats now).

Let them have feats. Even more options. I like it!

Another good idea on itterative attack routines. Why not multiple attacks (penalized) as a TACTICAL OPTION but with larger penalties. Thus, combat decisions would be more about a combination of smaller attacks (against weak AC opponents) or one big daddy thwack (ie, Power Attacking) against the tougher AC opponent. Also a good option.

Others?