"I hate math"

[WizarDru]

"Math is hard, let's go shopping!" - Barbie*

*When Mattel released a talking Barbie who offered that bit of teenage wisdom, public reaction was so furious they pulled her off the shelves. Mattel is still trying to recover from the PR disaster.

Clarification: She said "Math is hard!" as one of her phrases. She didn't combine it with anything else. Some of the other phrases, of course included "Let's go shopping!" and "Let's go the Mall!".

As for Mattel and Barbie, with 3.6+ billion dollars worth of sales of assorted Barbie merchandise and properties, and the company turning over 4.9 Billion in profits last year, I don't think they're trying to recover, at all. If not for the 'Bratz' franchise, they'd have little to no competition at all.

 

[Ourph]

The math is just adding one and two; the time it takes is irrelevant. Personally, I hardly call it math.

Yeah, the math is easy. The hard part if figuring out what to add/subtract and doing it every round or so based on what spells/abilities/feats your foe has and what spells/abilities/feats you are employing.

As for your comments about less complicated systems being faster because there are fewer choices to make, all I can say is that my experience diverges from yours in that department. IMO a game can be "simple" without being "simplistic". It's not necessary to have a different numerical modifier detailed in the rules for every choice or combination of choices in order to reward making creative and thoughtful decisions in combat (or anywhere else in the game for that matter).

 

[WizarDru]

Now then, on to the issue of "I hate math."

1) Concerning Thac0: it's counter-intuitive. I didn't bother with 2e, so I can't comment beyond that as to it's faults/merits.

2) At high levels, every additional character has the potential to increase the complexity of an individual, and spellcasters do so exponentially. I run an Epic level game with a druid, archmage and cleric. Spell power is considerable, and it's interaction can be intimidating. Add in the various abilities and magic items a group may have, and you've got a lot of numbers.

3) Playing with a group at a con is very different from an experienced group, as has been mentioned. Uncertain social interactions further muddy the waters.

4) Players should be expected to be responsible for helping with the math, and being responsible for their own calculations. Don't choose to play a super-archer unless you know how range increments work, the effects of firing into melee, and so on. Don't be a spellcaster and not know what your touch BAB is, or what the DCs of your spells are. Don't wait for your turn to decide your action. Read the spell description before your turn. Figure out your AC, and how any of your readied spells might modify them. And so on, and so on.

5) I use DM Genie to track various effects in combat, and love it. You can just as easily create 3x5' cards (which we also do) for each spell in play. When you cast it, put it on the table for the other PCs to see, so they can refer to the cards on the table, and do quick tabulation on the fly, as needed.

6) Figure out what your totally debuffed AC is. Calculate all your bonuses, and be prepared for when you are flatfooted, or denied your dex bonus, and so on. If it's not a con, and you can't trust your players to help with the math, there may be other problems.

 

[ashockney]

Attached is a spreadsheet I use as a player. It's a bit more complex than it should be, but basically, I put an X in the yellow column for each effect or spell that applies, and it spits out the AC, attack, and damage in the blue boxes. (Normally I hide the columns that do the actual calculating, which makes the sheet much cleaner.)

I whipped this up in about an hour using my rudimentary knowledge of Excel. It saves me a lot of time during the game, especially when my PCs have several buff spells going.

Very nice!

Thank you for sharing this tool. I think it would help things (particularly for those players who will refuse to do the "pre-work" ahead of time). I would be curious to see how long your list of "buff" variables down the right side will get when you get to 14th - 16th level, including all the different spell permutations and magic items that could be added in.

 

[ashockney]

. ... But I truly abhor listening to litanies before and after dice rolls, "I rolled X, plus This for This Modifier, plus That for That Modifier, but he's got coverage, so minus one point here and one point there, and minus X percent because I'm a geek, but I get a bonus because I recited all this crap out loud..." Hate it hate it hate it!

This made me laugh out loud. Very well put.

My players at Origins simply said "I hate math" but I like the way you put it, maybe even better.

 

[D+1]

Well, can you be more specific about the math to which you refer?

I am currently playing an 18th level Cleric. In order to speed things up, I have pre-calculated the affect of all buff spells (and in their various stackig combinations) on his stats, so that whne the time comes, I don't have to sit there and figure out To Hit, Damage, AC and Ability bonuses, etc.

As a DM, I have my lap top with me, and I use various Excel generators, as well as having the calculator program open.
[snip]
Of course, I'm fortunate enough to have two engineers at my table. ;-)

The irony in this reply is lethal.

 

[ashockney]

Now then, on to the issue of "I hate math."

5) I use DM Genie to track various effects in combat, and love it. You can just as easily create 3x5' cards (which we also do) for each spell in play. When you cast it, put it on the table for the other PCs to see, so they can refer to the cards on the table, and do quick tabulation on the fly, as needed.

These are both very helpful recommendations. Thank you for sharing your insights. I also really like the idea of spell cards. What if it were something that could be handed out to players when they receive a certain benefit...color coded (to deal with stacking/non-stacking).

I do want to restate my purpose...challenge one of the best group of gaming minds on the planet to come up with a few ideas on how to make the GAME better.

The game IS played at cons. The game IS played at FLGS's. The game IS played by players who will not all want to participate 110% of their time to "building" a character. The game IS played by people who might be challenged by the CALCULUS level math that high level becomes, with all of it's variables. If you make the above assumptions, I'll ask you...

What can we do to make the game PLAY better?
How do we make it EASIER, without losing complexity or challenge?

 

[Ourph]

What can we do to make the game PLAY better?
How do we make it EASIER, without losing complexity or challenge?

1. As someone already suggested, limit bonus types to a small number. Spell them out clearly and make a single consistent rule about what stacks and what doesn't. Require all official supplementary material to follow those guidelines.

2. Eliminate or heavily restrict dependent bonuses/penalties. Bonuses/penalties shouldn't change during a normal game session very often and shouldn't be dependent upon your foes abilities/spells/feats except in very limited ways. Example: Eliminate the differences between "touch" and "incorporeal touch". There's no reason to differentiate between the two. Mage armor should either count against both or count against neither.

3. Eliminate buff spells that do nothing more than change a number on your character sheet and make magic into something "fantastic" again. IMO, any remaining buff spells should be "personal" range only.

 

[RFisher]

I love math, but...

In the 1990s, my group played GURPS, then Rolemaster, then Hârnmaster, then Fantasy Hero. I enjoyed those games a lot, but I noticed how some of the players felt a bit left out while the few of us with a strong grasp of the rules would be resolving things.

They weren't complaining, but I didn't like that those players weren't as engaged as the rest of it. It didn't seem to be because they wouldn't like to be. They just weren't intested in mastering a complex set of rules.

Then I played a side AD&D campaign. It made me believe that a roleplaying game could be both fun & simple enough for everyone at the table to grasp the rules without a huge investment of time & energy.

So, I stopped GMing those systems.

I didn't notice at first, but the same thing happened with D&D3e. So, I've decided (for that & other reasons) I don't want to DM 3e anymore.

 

[woodelf]

RPGs are not a storytelling medium. They're about mission-oriented dynamic problem-solving scenarios. It shouldn't be a surprise that a competant GM is one that focuses more about constructing the scenario than anything else.

You missed the "for me"s in there. Some of us want dynamic challenge-confronting storytelling out of our RPGs. And others want still other things. Even "fun" is not the least common denominator of why people play RPGs, so you certainly can't make a blanket statement that RPGs are not for "storytelling".