"I hate math"

[DragonLancer]

If theres one thing I can say about this, its that in my years playing RPG's they have helped improve my maths. Quick adding up of numbers, percentages and with the D20 system being as mathematical as it is, I see that as a good thing.

 

[WizarDru]

Any other pitfalls that you've noticed? What grows "too complex" or "mathmatically cumbersome" by the time you reach high levels, that seems to work fine up until about 10th - 12th level?

I really don't see anything that's mathematically cumbersome into Epic Levels...the issue is one of keeping track of all the various options, choices and changing factors. And I don't see that as a system fault, but a logical consequence of being superhumanly powerful beings of legend.

Case in point: with the right combination of spells, a high-level character can have Spell Resistance conferred by an ally, a 50% miss chance from an item, fortification on his armor for defense, several buff spells, a magic circle and protection from evil running, a bard song in effect, a prayer in effect, protection from spells active for several spells, death warded, polymorphed and has a spell absorption ability from an item.

That's a lot to manage...but it's part and parcel of the standard game, where management of resources becomes a serious requirement for survival. High-level combat becomes something of a chess battle, with both sides trying to find the rips in their opponents defenses. The math is quite easy...but remembering all of the effects that interact can be problematic, which is why I recommended the effects cards, earlier.

Oh, WOW. W-O-W!!! This program is AWESOME! Thanks for the link...

DMGenie is awesome. The ability to get the srd entries for monsters and spells in seconds is worth the price alone. But being able to track effects and create monsters much, MUCH faster makes it invaluable to me. Creating high-level creatures by the books is a lot of work, but with DM Genie, the work of an hour becomes the work of a minute. And he updates frequently, such as the addition a few days ago of the XPH content, or the release before that, where templates were added.

 

[mmadsen]

I really don't see anything that's mathematically cumbersome into Epic Levels...the issue is one of keeping track of all the various options, choices and changing factors. And I don't see that as a system fault, but a logical consequence of being superhumanly powerful beings of legend.

Except that you can manage a "superhumanly powerful" superhero in Mutants & Masterminds with a lot less bookkeeping. It isn't the power level so much as it's the vast number of disparate little powers you need to track that slows things down.

Creating high-level creatures by the books is a lot of work...

Indeed. It's a lot of little interdependent yet inconsistent calculations and decisions: one feat, plus one more feat per three levels, plus one bonus feat at first Fighter level, plus one more feat per two Fighter levels, plus one feat for being human; level-plus-three skill ranks in most skills, level-times-something plus two for good saves; etc.

 

[ashockney]

Case in point: with the right combination of spells, a high-level character can have Spell Resistance conferred by an ally, a 50% miss chance from an item, fortification on his armor for defense, several buff spells, a magic circle and protection from evil running, a bard song in effect, a prayer in effect, protection from spells active for several spells, death warded, polymorphed and has a spell absorption ability from an item.

Wizardru, thank you for staying current with the topic, and keeping the thread going. I really appreciate it. I think in the long run, these discussion can really open the eyes, ears, and doors to some of the best changes we'll see implemented in the next evolution of our game.

Your above example is a PERFECT scenario description that I was trying to highlight, about complexity and mathmatical hurdles. It looks at the other side of the equation, and adds even MORE issues to address. See my earlier reference of the 14th level fighter/rogue, and all the rolls she had to make each round to determine hits/damage. The number of combinations and modifiers are very, very high. Now, let's throw "defense" into the mix as well. They were fighting mostly giants, so there wasn't much of the above, but the closer you get to 20th (and into Epic) the more EVERY villian in EVERY encounter has to look like the above defensive array. And as a DM, you have to track it ALL. As a player, you've now EXPONENTIALLY increased the already CUMBERSOME number of roles I must make to determine hits and damage.

MATH SCHOLARS, WHERE ARE YOU?

I would like someone to build this formula, and look for ways to simplify it! Which variables aren't adding much to the equation?

That's a lot to manage...but it's part and parcel of the standard game, where management of resources becomes a serious requirement for survival. High-level combat becomes something of a chess battle, with both sides trying to find the rips in their opponents defenses. The math is quite easy...but remembering all of the effects that interact can be problematic, which is why I recommended the effects cards, earlier.

I totally agree. And did your players find this fun? Mine got some disgruntled (above 30th level) with everyone being immune to EVERYTHING and the battle becoming a way to peel the onion on EVERY villian, and once you broke through a defense, ripping it to shreds. They felt like their powers weren't effective most of the time. Frutstrating.

Your thoughts/experiences?

 

[PeterMikelsons]

Unless you're taking derivatives or sqaure roots or any of that stuff, D&D math isn't calculus.

True, but in my last group, several players (independently) took derivatives while computing the optimal power attack bonus for any given attack bonus, AC, and average base damage.

It seems to me like many posters think level 12+ D&D "math" is easy and fun; I'm happy for them. That doesn't change the fact that for other players, some with too much education in math fields, it is not. I'm curious if there are ways to make it easy and fun, without switching to another game (Fudge works great at high levels, IMHO) or spending time learning skills for what is, after all, just a game.

 

[mmadsen]

Unless you're taking derivatives or sqaure roots or any of that stuff, D&D math isn't calculus. Algebra, and elementary algebra at that. Addition and subtraction, multiplication and division. And those last two are fairly rare. It's not brain surgery.

It's not brain surgery. It's not rocket science. But it is a pretty good approximation of tax accounting.

 

[woodelf]

I disagree. They *have* to be mutually exclusive to an extant.

Look at the example of Combat Expertise from above.
Right now it is very flexible. Every round you can choose to use it, or not. And every round, you can change whether to use +/-1,2,3,4, or 5. It can lead to a lot of calculating. But it is very flexible.

We can simplify it. And say it can be used or not, but is always a +/-3. There, we have added simplicity, taken away a lot of addition, and at the same time removed some of the flexibility.

Now, if you can provide an example for me of keeping the flexibility of having/using Combat Expertise, yet simplifying it.... then I am all ears.

The difficulty isn't having flexibility and simplicity, it's having flexibility, simplicity, and crunchiness.

Take this paraphrase of a rule from Over the Edge: if you do something that gives you a tactical advantage, you get one or more bonus dice. There: all the flexibility of D&d3E, and then some--anything you do has a meaningful mechanical result, the results are differentiated in magnitude, and i've just obviated the need for 25pp of rules.

Or, in our own Four Colors al Fresco, benefit and hindrance dice come in any size from d3 to d50, giving you at least 11 steps in each direction, and there's no reason you couldn't assign multiple of each type.

Or, for that matter, read a superhero comic. The characters have not only infinite options, but infinite shades of degree, and with "mechanics" no more complex than "what makes sense, and what are the consequences?" I'm not bringing that up to be flippant--there are RPGs that basically play like that, relying on the players rather than tons of rules.

Now, trying to go for that sort of simplicity-and-flexibility under a numbers-heavy paradigm like D20 System--that's a real problem. It will require significant rewrites from the ground up to really pull it off, not just some tricks and techniques with the existing system. The suggestion to ditch bonus types and just allow all of them, or a certain number of them is a great example of this: it does simplify things, but requires a significant change in how things work.

 

[jmucchiello]

Then you could use a standard set of "miniature markers" to identify when these abilities were activated.

I find "miniature markers" to be hard to work with yet can power attack with the best of them. Please keep your markers to yourself and out of my SRD, thank you. I have a character sheet. I can put marks on them and then erase them. Works great for all of this. When I DM I make little mini-sheets for all the important monsters/NPCs. Unimportant ones tend to have Alertness instead of Power Attack.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Except that you can manage a "superhumanly powerful" superhero in Mutants & Masterminds with a lot less bookkeeping. It isn't the power level so much as it's the vast number of disparate little powers you need to track that slows things down.

Indeed. It's a lot of little interdependent yet inconsistent calculations and decisions: one feat, plus one more feat per three levels, plus one bonus feat at first Fighter level, plus one more feat per two Fighter levels, plus one feat for being human; level-plus-three skill ranks in most skills, level-times-something plus two for good saves; etc.

Exactly. There are so many options that do the same basic thing but all are implimented in different ways.

If d20 were so much better than any other system I would be willing to put the effort into DM'ing it. As it is it's not even close to worth it so I don't. Obviously some of you find it to be easy and fun, enjoy.

 

[Drakonus]

These are both very helpful recommendations. Thank you for sharing your insights. I also really like the idea of spell cards. What if it were something that could be handed out to players when they receive a certain benefit...color coded (to deal with stacking/non-stacking).

I apologize if this has been mentioned before, but I haven't read the whole thread yet.

Have you checked out the product from The Other Game Company? They actually have pre-printed spell cards for all the SRD spells, separated by class. It costs like $6 on RPGNow. I printed them on different colored cardstock to represent divine/arcane/bard/druid/etc.

Also, their Monster Cards are a tremendous time saver.

BTW, this is my first post. Long-time lurker