I Have 8 20th Level Characters -- Now What?

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Aluvial mate!

I've had two sessions since the last time I was at this thread. The first, August 31st, the second last night. We generally play from 7:00 to 11:00.

Anyhow, the first session got off to a great start. I was refreshed from the ideas I got in this thread, and I set off to make an adventure that would accommodate the group. I began by starting them off on a mystery. The events of the story were completely linear, although the party did manage to get sidetracked twice. Essentially, someone gets killed in their presence, with that event being tied to their larger goal of finding out what is killing the Vesve (were in Greyhawk) in the Defiled Glades. Some undead basically kill the man and the party kills the undead. What are the undead doing here? How did they spawn? That type of thing. That event lets the party get involved just by virtue of them being there when the death occurs.

Then the go on a series of role-play encounters, each one leading them closer to the truth of what might be going on in the Vesve. There is a sage involved, giving them some clues to the whereabouts of another adventuring group that was seeking the same when the Glade first developed, so they went to seek him out. The game continues to the point where it leads them to a Cleric's old temple. The temple has been inhabited by other creatures who don't know that they hold the next clue. The party travels into the nearby mountains to this church and encounter a stone giant ambush... The party defeats 4 of the boulder throwers and when they move into the chapel, an old summoning occurs leaving the group to face off with a Greater/Elder Earth Elemental... The game ends.

I am completely satisfied by the results of the game session. Near the end, I had a few calls for, "let's just get to the heart of the Vesve and get it over with," but those were toned downed by the stone giant ambush. Now I know what you are saying, stone giants, hardly a challenge. You're right, but I'm using home-made encounter tables, and they group did get a tad banged up just tactically. I put this data in my head for later use. One ranged weapon out of nine.... hmmm.

Very good game, and I have a lot of fun.

Any group of mid CR monsters can be used effectively against low-epic PCs. You just need to set up the situation to give them a direct advantage.

Fast forward to next week's game preparation. I know that I'll be using larger giants for the encounter, so I start searching the books for something appropriate, something BIG! I come across the Mountain Giant from MMII. CR26. I have a few enormous giant miniatures, so I decide on a small family of the things. A Father, Mother, and Daughter. I even include a few slave minions, some more stone giants, fodder really. Ok, now I redesign the monsters and give them extra HP. Essentially, when the game calls for a d8, my creatures get 6.5 on the die, with a d10, I use all 8's, and on a d12, I use all 10's (plus all relevant Con mods). That's just the way it goes with my group. I have to bump things up a bit. This leaves me with three CR 26's, we'll see what happens.

The giant leader could have maximum hit points.

Start of the game session. Two of my players are late, 7:30 and one doesn't show. I'm running the party mage (19th level) and one of the late players has a new henchman so we are a little bogged down trying to start the game. I have the summoning trap combat, and the party is a little split up when they were dealing with the giants from last session. By the time the group is organized together, the elemental is dispatched in about 20 minutes. By then the two late guys show up (car trouble).

This brings me to one of my frustrations with my group dynamic. I decide that the Mountain Giant Lair will be in a cave nearby the Church, and that the Giant Family will have watched the proceedings with some of their stone giant slaves. Since I've built this cave with multiple levels, mostly up, I use the ol' Indy trap and the rolling boulder. The Giant family leaves the cave opening and moves up into their dwelling, the group must enter the cave, and then face off against the boulders that the giants will roll down the tunnel! Squash! Well, of course I know that the group will use dimension door, teleport, and other things to bypass the rolling boulders, but I didn't realize how hard it would be to get them organized to bypass the boulder.

Let me explain. Essentially, I get the party to split up, one fast group charging up the tunnel, the others coming up more cautiously. The two groups can communicate with the help of a psi-crystal (I still need to look that up) and so the lead group can tell the lower group when a boulder is coming. Still, you would think that I might get one of them, so we proceed with the "trap." The top group is able to Dimension Door past the boulder when they see it, and the bottom group uses Stone Shape to carve a niche out of the wall to hide in to let the boulder pass. But that doesn't stop the guy with the Wall of Force rod from erecting a wall to completely block the passage.

The boulder hits the wall and stops. So now, I've got one group up top Dimension Dooring past boulders, the other group stuck behind the wall. The rod user then drops the wall and lets the first boulder roll by slowly, the second boulder quickly. But now the bottom group is stuck; they only have the one use of the Stone Shape, one niche for the rest of the group to hide in, and according to the upper group, two more boulders (that they've avoided) are coming down. The bottom group then starts this desperate debate about how hopeless their situation is, despite the fact that they also have Dimension Door, Levitate Boots, Fly potions and items, Teleports and the like to get past the rocks! This whole thing takes up another hour and half. It's now 9:00.

There is my first problem, the logistics of putting 9 characters + one Large Animal Companion (Dire Tiger) + hawk + a familiar monkey all in the right positions at the right time (using miniatures to help) all the while them making something that I perceive as an easy obstacle, a logistical nightmare.

Moving on... Then come the encounter with the Giant Family. I split the players, forcing the upper group into another room. I'm ready to go, I have all of the stats on my cheat sheet, I have initiative rolled, the top group makes it up, and is about to get pummeled, when... they use an extradimensional space to hide in... The other group is 20 rounds of tunnel back. So I continue to sequester the upper group and since they have a rough idea about how long the other group will take to arrive, I tell them that I will be back in 20 rounds, it shouldn't take long, the other group is essentially moving.

Back to the main table, I tell the other group that the boulders have stopped and they decide to beat feet up the tunnel to find their fellows. The psi-crystal has lost touch with them. They move up to the top, and find an empty cave (I have the giants positioned for further ambush in the back of the upper complex). So, I go and get the other group (the upper) and find that the druid there wants to summon some elementals. 12 Huge Elementals to be exact. I mention that I don't think that you can summon to an extradimensional space, but I relent when I hear, "why not?"

Remember also that Mountain Giants have a Summon Giant ability. So you could easily counter their elementals by bringing in another group of giants from the rear.

The upper group springs out of the space with the 12 15'X15' elementals and the group is back together. I bring the other players in.

The druid sets her elementals to run through the upper complex, and the Giant Family springs from their, ummm, hiding spots (rooms), and the battle is on. Except, and here is my other frustration of the evening, and my major frustration, the PC group is now 21 vs. my 3 Giants and 6 stone giant slaves. All of these take up huge amounts of room, and now my Giants are essentially pinned in the rooms that they were going to spring from because the elementals are in the way. The Giants have trample though, and I start by picking up elementals and throwing them through a large window on the upper level to fall to the valley below (and on top of the Church!). The group starts their attack, and the whole thing basically bogs down to a crawl...

Why? Because I play the mage. Because there are 30 figures on the board. Because one of my players bitches that I didn't give him enough time to make up his mind. Because one of my players can't figure out that you get ONE move action and ONE standard action, after years of play. Because, I'm frustrated and stressed behind the screen...

Heres what to do. Get a stopwatch, or even better, a 60 or 90 second egg-timer.

In turn give each player 'until the sands run out' to tell you exactly what they are going to do on their turn. If the player starts to dither, mumble, stall or not explain themselves sufficiently, then treat them as if Dazed for that round.

Be adamant in your policing of this rule. Never give epic players an even break.

Another idea to speed up play. Use average damage for monsters (Stone Giant 21 damage, Mountain Giant 42 damage). Still roll a few dice behind the DMs screen, but just take a rough average.

The end of the session comes, the battle is but a third over, which took two hours, which means that if the pacing continues the same, the battle will take up the bulk of the following session. I don't think that the battles should take up the whole session, or even half of it.

I agree, see my above suggestion about timing them on their decisions.

But with the characters so high level, with the proper opponents having hundreds of HP's, it just seems to take forever, and still doesn't seem to challenge the group. 3 CR 26 creatures is NO MATCH for 8 20th level characters.

Well, a few things to remember are:

1) Mountain Giants are not really CR 26 in the traditional sense, probably more akin to CR 20. If you wanted them to be a fairly tough encounter for your PCs I would have suggested 6 mountain giants (and 12 stone giants), or 4 mountain giants (and 8 stone giants) if you wanted it to be a typical encounter for your PCs.

2) Your party are double the standard size for a group, which means you have to double the number of opponents, or alternately increase the CR of opponents.

I may have to bring out some reserve giants to finish this obstacle,

Well remember that during the parties stay in the extradimensional space the giants could have used their summon giant ability.

or allow the giants to parlay with the group to stop the conflict and move on with the story...

You could have the giants bring down the roof of the cave onto the PCs and treat it as an Earthquake spell. The giants could have rigged the ceiling to collapse, so they would know where to stand for minimal damage - handy since you say they are pegged back. Even if the giants take some of the damage they won't be pinned beneath the rubble, unlike the PCs.

Check pages 66-67 of the DMG 3.5 for details on cave-ins.

At this point the giants can flee (if they are severely weakened) or beat on the PCs, who will be pinned for a minimum of 1 round, likely more.

Essentially, I have two sessions, one role-play that I had fun with, and one combat, that my group had fun with. They love the power. It's gone completely to their heads, they think themselves invincible. And so far they are.

This is where you need to wake them up to the fact that at epic levels, complacency means death.

Pull no punches. Have the giants cave-in the roof. Then have the summoned giant reinforcements appear at the rear of the chamber (twelve more stone giants). Have the giants beat on the trapped PCs (who need to make a DC 25 strength check to free themselves - and thats a full round action). The giants will be +4 to hit the trapped PCs, the PCs will not be able to benefit from dexterity either. All damage on pinned PCs should be doubled because it is effectively crushing damage!

If I pull the Big Bad Ass out of the bag to throw at them, they are very likely to end up with some dead characters... I've threatened that they continue, they will likely face something that they can't beat. Do I start looking at the CR 30+ to give them a challenge?

Not just yet. I would be interested to hear how they dealt with the cave-in scenario.

Also, regarding a CR 30 monster, if you are just using flat character levels you are likely to get minced by the PCs.

Anyhow, here are my two session reports. Thanks if you stayed with my rambling the whole way. I hope for better for next week. Eventually, I have the story continuing linearly to the heart of the Vesve, and to the minions of the Imprisoned God, seeking to break their deity from his eternal shackle. In my game, his essence is leaking from the prison and is what is killing the forest. This is the same nemesis they faced off against in their first adventures, RttToEE.

Is that Imix, or Ogremoch...or something like that? I haven't played RttToEE.

I realize that I've not expressed my frustrations very well here, I hope that anyone who has read this thread might have some advice on how to end this DMing nightmare. At least some advice to make the game fun for all of us, me for story, them for combat.

I have given a few ideas above, I hope they are at least some help to you.

 

[Aluvial]

Hey Aluvial mate! Not just yet. I would be interested to hear how they dealt with the cave-in scenario.

I'll fill you in here next week. Good idea!

Is that Imix, or Ogremoch...or something like that? I haven't played RttToEE.

Imix. The group was 14/15 when they faced off with him, and I killed 6 before they defeated him...

Thanks for the reply, I know that was a long post!

Aluvial

 

[Corporal_Cupcake]

I'm not sure

...if this is the best approach to be dealing with epic characters. If this becomes a battle between DM and player, as D&D so often is (personal statement), the players will _always_ win. There are more of them than you. They don't need to spend 20 hours a week to entertain you (whereas you, on the other hand, spend the majority of your time preparing for the _players'_ enjoyment). They are really, really familiar with their single PC, whereas you are only aware of the monsters/NPCs' capabilities on the most basic level. Take the red dragon example from the Shackled Path. The designers are folks who do D&D for a _living_ and even they couldn't utilize the monsters' abilities fully.

So if it's going to be an arms race, you'll lose. Every time. And you'll be frustrated. Every time. Until and unless you throw them up against an unstoppable force or you roll a few 20s in a row. In my opinion, that's no way for an epic campaign to end. When combats take hours and are frustrating in their complexity, how can it be a suitable gaming experience for anyone?

Obviously I exaggerate. You're very likely to have some good combat experiences with epic-level characters. You'll continue enjoying the occasional RP encounter. But I'd bet that the majority of your time with these characters will be dull, tedious, and mind-bendingly complex.

So, what to do? Folks in this thread. have really given a bunch of good ideas. Here's what I'm planning to do with my 18th-level party, which has been adventuring together for almost 4 years. When they reach 20th level, they'll go on one or two adventures to flex their great power one last time. Then we end the campaign on a weekly basis. In the new campaign, these 20th-level adventuring legends become sages, teachers, people whom the _new_ party will visit for advice. And once or twice a year, when the need is great, the legends will reunite one more time to smite evil (or just kill stuff).