I Have A Problem With 3E

[Jefe Bergenstein]

In the sorts of roll systems I would favor, you wouldn't.

You are operating under the assumption I'm espousing the classic "4d6 keep 3, arrange to taste" thing. I'm not, necessarily.

I'm currently leaning towards either the grid variant, which has been discussed here, or some sort of "allocate your dice, THEN roll" scheme.

Why not roll to see if your BAB goes up then? I find it a little bland that two 6th level fighters have the same BAB. Saves? Class abilities? Why do all fighters get feats at the same rate, thats a little unrealistic, dont you think?

The grid methods Ive seen are really just an excuse for uber characters that the game wasnt balanced around. You may as well pick your stats at that point.

My preferred method is to pick a number, and have your stats add up to that. Half of them can be odd. Afterwards, you can add 2 to one stat, or 4 to your lowest stat. Out of 6 PC's, none of them have the same ability score sets.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

1. Multiclassing
I don't think we view multiclassing as the same thing. A Fighter/Thief isn't a guard that decided we wants to open safes - to me they would be more of thug style that works for the thieve's guild. He didn't just 'suddenly' gain more combat ability - he always had it but has learned to show it a little more. Not to mention that casters need more help to actually multiclass well.

2. Free Metamagic
This seems to contradict your encounter/day complaint later on. The 'free' metamagic abilities are, in theory at least, a limited number of times per day while the regular metamagic aspects can go all day long if the casters want them to. If a user has spent all of their gold/feats on the free metamagic aspects they will likely be lacking in other aspects and abilities. I agree that if the DM doens't keep a close watch on the treasure this may get out of hand.

3. Synergy
Any time a system gets as many splat books as D&D currently has this will be a problem. This is a problem with the number of books available, not the system.

4. Two-Handed Weapons
This one I agree with. Drop the floating shields and it'll go a long way to fix this. Reinstate 3.0 damage from Power Attack and you should be all set.

5. Balancing Per Encounter Instead of Per Day
I like the per day style of abilities but not for the same reasons. I like the strategy of the 'do I use it now or wait' questions that arise. That said, the PCs are the stars of the show. The world should change because of them and not stay the same in spite of them.

Don't get me wrong - if you give the PCs "enough" warning (whatever "enough" may be) they should get slaughtered if they face the the dragon that is 10 CRs above them. I am fully behind the DMG where it says PCs should face challenges that are too easy and should have to run from time to time.

What I will say is that I don't like the per week abilities because unless the DMs always says that the next adventure takes place at least a week later you may forget if you used it or not (or can't read your handwriting or accidently erased your checkmark when you reset the ability that was next to it). Everything should be 'per day' for ease of bookkeeping. I can see 'per encounter' abilties but I also agree that should be the rare exception and not the rule.

6. Neverending Buffs
They already reduced the main buffs (the animal buffs) and what I have seen is now casters memorise three of each instead of one of each meaning they don't have as many utility/odd/fun spells.

I'm split on this one. If all the buffs are cast at the beginning of the day that means the player can add in the bonuses once and we can forget about the number crunching unless a Dispel Magic gets cast or something. Less time changing things during a fight and more time adventuring.

One the other hand I do agree that it tends to make the casters look the same in the middle of a fight. The only way to stop this from happening as far as I see is to ditch the spells all together and I'm sure that will cause other problems down the road.

7. Combat Expertise and Power Attack
Either have all options ready before hand or pick a standard and stick with it. This is a preparation problem as I see it, nothing more.

8. Point Buy
LONG LIVE POINT BUY!!!!

I've ranted about this in the past on these boards. I've been on the recieving end of the runt stats before. The fighter was the rogue backup when I wasn't there. The Fighter!! If the DM gave a fight to let the fighter do his thing my rogue was either at death's door or hiding in the back corner hoping no one noticed him. THe enemies had to have more HP to stand up to the fighter's damage and the critters had to dish out more damage to affect the fighter's own HP. If the DM gave a fight on the level of the rogue's abilities the fighter came in; ginsued the enemies without breaking a sweat and then wondered when the fun would begin. If my rogue was able to sneak-attack a bad guy he would be up in the range of the fighter's damage (as it should be) but that would mean the rogue was either in melee or at range and had made himself a threat at the start of the fight. This wasn't good for the rogue's survivability.

I don't mind sessions without combat. I've played in them and had a blast. But if there is combat I want to be a part of it and do something other than say "I twidle my thumbs until further notice" and then go and use the DM's bathroom. That is what Point Buy allows (me to be a part of the fight - character generation has nothing to do with the DM's bathroom).

9. Rerolls
I haven't seen that many reroll abilities. There were a few items in the Miniature's Handbook that allowed rerolls once per day in certain situations and I thought those were cool. Once per day isn't a problem, it allows the players to keep the PCs heroic and ignore one bad roll. If two bad rolls come up -well, then, the heroes are toast.

10. Magic Item Creation
I'll agree that this is odd. It makes in some cases (LotR One Ring and such) and not in others (do Epic Wizards really let themselves lose levels for making 1st level scrolls). There has to be something else than gold cost - but I'm not sure what it is.

 

[Psion]

Why not roll to see if your BAB goes up then? I find it a little bland that two 6th level fighters have the same BAB. Saves? Class abilities? Why do all fighters get feats at the same rate, thats a little unrealistic, dont you think?

Sorry, that's a false dichotomy and I don't buy into it.

The grid methods Ive seen are really just an excuse for uber characters that the game wasnt balanced around. You may as well pick your stats at that point.

Again, false dichotomy. And supposed on "grid methods you have seen", which may or may not be the one I am talking about.

My method is in no way shape or form equivalent to picking your stats. Indeed, it restricts picking of stats in order to force some compromise and foil min-maxing and pattern-think.

I will not be throwing out the baby with the bathwater, thanks.

 

[cthulhu_duck]

1. Multiclassing
AD&D was too strict. 3rd edition is too permissive. In AD&D you couldn't change professions unless you were human; that was a problem. In 3rd edition you can't help but change professions many times, including certain prestigious professions; this is also a problem.

I don't views classes as equaling 'professions', so this isn't a problem for me. I also have players who think about multiclassing in advance, and don't try to abruptly begin a new class.

We also play with a table agreement that players will discuss prestige classes for their characters with the GM first.

 

[Lanefan]

1. MulticlassingAD+D was too strict in some ways, not strict enough in others. I'd like to see a limit that o character can have more than two classes, period...with prestige classes rolled into the main classes as branches. Thus, a 7th-level Rogue who takes up Assassin becomes a Rogue (Assassin), and 2 levels later is referred to as a 9th-level Rogue (Assassin) rather than a 7-2. (myself, I'd prefer to make several currently-prestige classes base classes and do away with *all* the rest of the PrC's, but they seem to have become so ingrained now that this might be a pipe dream...)

2. Free MetamagicMetamagic in and of itself is a bad idea. Want a more powerful fireball? Research and design a different spell. Otherwise, let the spells do what they do. Oh, and to compensate somewhat, take the damage-dice limits off all spells.

3. SynergyI haven't encountered this yet, but the simple answer seems to be to decide before the campaign starts what materials are allowed (after you've had a good long look at them), and that's it. *No* material may be introduced mid-campaign.

4. Two-Handed WeaponsAgreed this is not working as it should. Perhaps get rid of the extra strength bonus, while increasing the base damage dice on some weapons.

5. Balancing Per Encounter Instead of Per DayAgreed; per encounter is an awful mechanism for three reasons: one, it makes casters etc. much more powerful than they should be; two, it makes a situation where an encounter repeats - e.g. the bad guy runs away and two hours later you meet again - something of an exercise in futility as you can't weaken a foe via repeated encounters; and three, there is and can be no clear definition of what constitutes an encounter.

6. Neverending BuffsBuffs of all kinds can be fixed by simply requiring expensive material components (a 100 g.p. gem, for example) for each casting. That way, the spells are there for times of need, but are less likely to be abused.

7. Combat Expertise and Power AttackThere's bigger headaches need fixing, but the flat bonus is a nice simplifiaction (say, half your BAB for Power Attack?).

8. Point BuyAgreed; point buy to me is an abomination.

9. RerollsAgreed; in-game re-rolls should *not* exist in any form unless by divine intervention or wish. (or Avoid Fate from the Deck of Many Things...) Re-rolling an awful set of stats as per the DMG I have no problem with.

10. Magic Item CreationMake it take a long time...months, even years...to create a single item. Make it rules-clear that the PC's job is not to make items, but to use them (and find them), and that a PC who wants to spend the time building an item is going to miss out on a lot of adventuring.

Lanefan

 

[delericho]

To me, the ease of multiclassing shows that D&D has removed itself firmly from the archetype based game it used to be and really needs to move into the freedom of a pure point buy system.

I absolutely hate that idea. For me, the class system is one of the greatest strengths of D&D. Multiclassing is necessary because it would be impossible to provide a class for even a reasonable fraction of the suitable archetypes, but point buy would be going far too far IMO.

It's one of the things that could finally stop me playing this game.

 

[tvknight415]

Were you having a problem with this before?

Because that seems just... unnecessarily restrictive. What's wrong with a raging weapon specialist?

Yes, I've had problems with power gamers finding all the most tripped out combinations and playing them with no thought to the role-playing behind it in the past. And, when I send threats that expose the weaknesses of the power-gamed characters, I get accused of being out to get the PC's (even though as the PC's make a name for themselves, their m-o becomes more famous and bad guys do adjust tactics just like PC's do).

 

[BryonD]

Yes, I've had problems with power gamers finding all the most tripped out combinations and playing them with no thought to the role-playing behind it in the past. And, when I send threats that expose the weaknesses of the power-gamed characters, I get accused of being out to get the PC's (even though as the PC's make a name for themselves, their m-o becomes more famous and bad guys do adjust tactics just like PC's do).

In all honesty here, tripped out power gaming with no thought to role-playing is a perfectly valid form of FUN D&D gaming.
Deep role playing with an absolute disdain for max/min is as well.
The game system in question is not a factor there.
If you force a system that goes more to your desire for RP the power gamers will still be power gamers. They will just be frustrated and you will simply be attempting to transfer your dissatisfaction over to them.
You don't need another system, you need another gaming group. Either that or you need to try to open up your options and play WITH your group rather than against them.

Rules can not "fix" players. This is even more true when "fix" really means "make them stop playing the way they want to and start playing the way I want to."

And really, this applies to several of the "issues" in the OP. IMO / IME

 

[3catcircus]

I see two solutions: C&C or HARP...

 

[Aus_Snow]

I'm of the following opinions regarding those points:

1. Disagree.
2. Agree.
3. Agree.
4. Agree.
5. Agree.
6. Disagree.
7. Disagree.
8. Strongly disagree.
9. Disagree.
10. Not sure, for D&D itself. Perhaps there is a better way.