I just got D20 Future and I love it! [hugs his copy]

[Vigilance]

Moridin, the book is really good. We at RPGObjects have already shuffled our production schedule to move two books to support it up, and tweaked a book that was almost done to be more compatible with what you guys did.

If there's higher praise I could personally give the book I don't know what it would be.

Chuck

 

[Malacoda]

OK, so create a new gadget that increases Lifting Capacity. That specific option might not be in the book, but that doesn't mean the system won't support it.

The concept of a "gadget system" is a fine one. It makes a degree of sense for things like basic weapons, armour and equipment. But I find it less than optimal for other things, such as vehicles, startships or powered armour. I would have much rather seen something that lets you set the variables (Strength, Dexterity, Defense Bonus, movement, and so on) to arrive at a price. A construction system, not a system to modify presets, is what I would like.

Now, since I have the d20 Mecha SRD I do have such a system for vehicles, mechs, starships and powered armour. But I was hoping for a solid alternative in d20 Future.

Wow, if the gadget system limits your options, I'd hate to see what you think of most RPGs without dynamic equipment modifications. In all seriousness, is it just that there aren't ENOUGH gadgets, or what? I mean, there's only so much space in a single book...

Well, I was referring to the systems in d20 Future as a whole, not specifically the gadget system.

 

[d4]

(It's not like I had anything better to do, I'd had back to back heart attacks within a week, and being restricted to my bed with only the 7 seasons of Friends DVD's, the Alladin VHS movie, and the d20 Modern and d20 Future books. WHEEE!)

i can't imagine what kind of messed up campaign came out of those sources.

Is there something crucially missing from the basic ship creation rules?

as far as i can tell, there aren't any real ship creation rules... other than taking one of the sample ships given and switching out some equipment here or there and maybe slapping on a template. i think more guidance on the subject of creating our own ship designs is needed.

(or just go and use d20 Mecha, which is what i'm probably going to do.)

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Heh. I don't see where there was anything FLAWED about my math. All I was saying is that a book of X many pages for Y dollars gives us so many pages per dollar.

Your argument is that at either of those price to value comparisons, you feel the books are worth the price.

Which is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

I don't have D20 Future yet. I want to get it. Didn't say I wasn't going to get it because it wasn't WORTH it to me.

There was a comment that fewer people would buy a larger book with a larger price tag. I was merely pointing out that, from the customer's end, if the book were increased in page count and price to be equal to D20 Modern in both, it would actually be a BETTER BUY.

I would have been HAPPIER had the book been larger, and would have been more than willing to pay for it at that price. I, personally, think things like the Menace Manual and D20 Future are a little light on the page-count for being only 5 bucks less than the CORE BOOK. If they were, say, 30 bucks apiece ... I'd be happier. They're not a bad buy, but when you get a book that's something along the lines of 1/2 the size of the main book, but is over 3/4 the price.

I'm sure there's a thousand very good reasons ... minimum print-run costs, sales predictions, etc. It costs "this many" dollars just to get a print run DONE, regardless of the page-count, etc etc. So I'm sure a supplement like this IS over-priced compared to the core book.

I'm a pretty big Alternity fan and I figure this is going to be alot like Alternity in, hopefully, lots of good ways.

I understand that the places where this is a little light gives rise to more support from 3rd parties, which I like to see ... still, if I could have paid 40 dollars for a book with more stuff in it, as a consumer with very limited funds (I'm a GRAD student, for God's sake) I'd much rather pay WotC 40 bucks for all of it in one HC than 35 bucks to WotC and 6, 12, 20, 25 dollars to 3rd party folks.

Just saying what's on my bottom line. Less price, more entertainment is ALWAYS good for me.

Which is why I like RPGs compared to things like, say, movies and video games, usually. Two movies for my wife and myself is < 4 hours of entertainment for almost as much as d20 Future, which I'm sure I'll use for more than 4 hours.

--fje

 

[JEL]

JEL,

If you would like to compile a list of specific complaints (aside from Star Frontiers races, which I did not work on) and their solutions, that would help me out a lot in perhaps answering some of your questions. Unfortunately I'm a little confused, since you seem to be saying it's not generic enough, and yet at the same time it's too generic. What, specifically, would you say is missing from the book? This is an honest question, I would like to know.

Too generic would have been fine. Basically I feel that the book was too specific. Instead of giving rules for making mecha, spaceships, etc. we're given lists of these things with a large number of setting assumptions built in. To make an anology, instead of being given the tools and materials to build my own campaign, I was given a pre-fab kit. Take the cybernetics rules. If I want Six Million Dollar Man, they work great. If I want Robo Cop, Gunnm, Appleseed, or a hundred or more other styles of setting using cybernetics, they're useless. The limited space (which I understand is not something the writers had any control over) exasperates the problem because the lists of pre-defined options are rather short.

As for solutions, well they'd require re-writing the book from ground up starting with a different design goal. I'll stick with D20 Mecha and other third party products for what I want. Not that there aren't some things in Future that I liked and may use as well, such as the feats and advanced classes (I'm still not sure if I like the starship combat system or not). Oh and the space ship illos. I really do love those.

Does that make more sense?

 

[Furluge]

The concept of a "gadget system" is a fine one. It makes a degree of sense for things like basic weapons, armour and equipment. But I find it less than optimal for other things, such as vehicles, startships or powered armour. I would have much rather seen something that lets you set the variables (Strength, Dexterity, Defense Bonus, movement, and so on) to arrive at a price. A construction system, not a system to modify presets, is what I would like.

Now, since I have the d20 Mecha SRD I do have such a system for vehicles, mechs, starships and powered armour. But I was hoping for a solid alternative in d20 Future.

Well, I'm sure we can agree that the entire "Gadget" system idea is nothing new at all. I'd gotten pretty used to this kind of setup from using Tri-stat dX from Guardians of Order which calls the attribute to get gear, surprise surprise, Gadgets.

I personally would like to see some recomendations for calculating a Purchase DC increase for some gadget functions. Just some rough guidelines. I mean honestly if there were some listed gadgets for ability score, save, or skill increases one could easily build most of the "Powered armor" we'd like. (Despite the fact that I've gotten used to treating powered armor from mecha from GoO products.)

Actually thinking on it, since the web enhancement isn't out there might be more, but let me make some recomendations. Include gadgets that don't just modify some small things, but have major item altering increases, like raising AC, a few for damage, and the previous mentioned gadgets above. Then including gadgets that /lower/ those abilities and in turn it decreases the item's DC. Not really useful for customizing exisiting items, but it makes it easier to use the gadgets as a GM to create new items.

And before anyone says it. Yes, I know I could sit down and balance it myself. In fact if it isn't written into an enhancement I'll write it myself, but I'd much rather see this idea as a "core" item to it rather than being some crazy house rule on a webpage which isn't universaly used.

 

[RodneyThompson]

Too generic would have been fine. Basically I feel that the book was too specific. Instead of giving rules for making mecha, spaceships, etc. we're given lists of these things with a large number of setting assumptions built in. To make an anology, instead of being given the tools and materials to build my own campaign, I was given a pre-fab kit. Take the cybernetics rules. If I want Six Million Dollar Man, they work great. If I want Robo Cop, Gunnm, Appleseed, or a hundred or more other styles of setting using cybernetics, they're useless. The limited space (which I understand is not something the writers had any control over) exasperates the problem because the lists of pre-defined options are rather short.

See, I have to disagree with you on that. Just taking a look at the Cybernetics chapter, it covers a heck of a lot more than just replacements. I feel sure I could make a Robocop with those rules (especially combined with the Robotics rules, and the gadget system from the equipment chapter), though I must admit I'm not sure what Gunnm is or what kind of Cybernetics you find in Appleseed. I think that section does a solid job with the toolkit approach because it provides you with lots of options of what you want to do with it. Now, if there is a specific option that is missing, I won't quarrel with that, because there's no way to cover every possible piece of cyberware. But you're given the basics there, which seems to me like that would be what you would want. I would hardly call the system useless because a few options had to be left out. That's like saying the vehicle rules in the core rulebook are useless because there are no stats for the F/A-18 Hornet in the book. Am I misunderstanding you? I'm really trying to see what the exact complaint is, but unfortunately without discussing specifics I don't know what you mean.

Additionally, there are rules for making starships and mecha. Sure, some of the equipment was to be specific, but what exactly would be the alternative? Instead of "laser cannon that does 5d6 x 10" you would have us say "generic weapon that deals 5d6 x 10" because the former assumes that laser weapons might exist?

As for solutions, well they'd require re-writing the book from ground up starting with a different design goal. I'll stick with D20 Mecha and other third party products for what I want. Not that there aren't some things in Future that I liked and may use as well, such as the feats and advanced classes (I'm still not sure if I like the starship combat system or not). Oh and the space ship illos. I really do love those.

Does that make more sense?

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think it was important to strike a balance between a generic system and specific examples. A toolkit is made more useful by providing some specific examples on its use; in other words, the specific material in the book is there to provide examples or simply plug-and-play material, while also serving as a blueprint for creating things for your own campaign.

I guess I'm just not understanding how removing ALL assumptions is possible. Granted, I haven't read d20 Mecha which everyone is raving about, so maybe that's how it should be done. Of course, they were able to devote an entire book's worth of resources to that subject, so that might have something to do with it.

 

[RodneyThompson]

Actually thinking on it, since the web enhancement isn't out there might be more, but let me make some recomendations. Include gadgets that don't just modify some small things, but have major item altering increases, like raising AC, a few for damage, and the previous mentioned gadgets above. Then including gadgets that /lower/ those abilities and in turn it decreases the item's DC. Not really useful for customizing exisiting items, but it makes it easier to use the gadgets as a GM to create new items.

More generic gadgets, and gadget drawbacks. I gotcha, and am way ahead of you. If they don't make it into the web enhancement, I'll be surprised.

 

[Sebastian Ashputtle]

Moridin, the book is really good. We at RPGObjects have already shuffled our production schedule to move two books to support it

Chuck

Chuck, if you don't tell us what these two books are and when they're going to be released, I will be sorely disappointed...

At least give me something to go on, man!

 

[Vigilance]

Sorry- I have mentioned them both a time or two-

We're releasing an expanded version of Prometheus, the free (Ennie nominated) setting for Blood and Space.

Then we're going to release Blood and Space II.

Thanks for asking

Chuck