I just got D20 Future and I love it! [hugs his copy]

[Ranger REG]

Why didn't they go with a book with the page count size of d20 Modern? It would have been worth the money.

Why didn't they make a SUPPLEMENT book (not a CORE RULEBOOK) that is 384 pages and costs $39.95?



Exactly how many of you would be willing to drop that much for a supplement to a $40 core rulebook?

 

[JPL]

I would. WOTC obviously figured that not enough folk would, though.

Someone wanna break down the advanced classes for me a little?

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

I'm not sure how much my copy of d20 Future differs from the ones you guys have, but I figured I'd put a little input in here.

(Translation: Ralts runs his big yap again, and tries to see if he can fit his clod-hoppers in his hamburger eating device)

When I got the d20 Future book, before I opened it, I, personally, was worried that it would NOT be too generic, but instead, would focus on one campaign setting, and based on that setting, would adjust all the power levels accordingly.

Not so, I discovered when I began going through it.

See, I'm looking at it from a slightly different view. Not someone that expects to drop the book on the table and have it toss out PC sheets, maps, a campaign setting, and run a game for me (And no, I'm not accusing anyone here of that, but I have seen that attittude displayed on other boards I lurk around at like a raggedy ghost.) and some lackwit friends.

I'm looking at for how well it supports the "generic feel" of the SRD and MSRD.

I was delighted in the toolkit that Wizards of the Coast had handed me, and I liked the bare-bones feeling of the book.

BUT...

I will concede that I was sightly disappointed. I found a lot of it "unimaginative" as far as Sci-Fi goes, since everything was based, primarily, around one advance. Something I feel will lead to "canon arguements" if a setting has no "graviton generators" but instead uses "tachyon inertia collectors" to power it's technology.

I'm a long time sci-fi reader, and author, and at first, this lack of detail and the rather restrictive technology bothered me. It kind of made the book feel a little flat.

Then I spent the time to read, and reread it, while jotting down notes on photocopied pages and notebook pages, and began to see the books full potential. (It's not like I had anything better to do, I'd had back to back heart attacks within a week, and being restricted to my bed with only the 7 seasons of Friends DVD's, the Alladin VHS movie, and the d20 Modern and d20 Future books. WHEEE!)

What the authors put in there was only ONE possible future timeline. The consideration that ballistic weapons would no longer exist could be a mistake that the population and military thinkers of the timeline were guilty of. The fact that so few power armors, spaceships and vehicles were in there meant I could pull a lot of vehicles and equipment from my own science fiction! Everything in there was only an example of what could/did happen!

So the book had a few flaws? So the data inside of it was skimpy here and there. So what? That meant LOTS of room for those few companies who choose to produce d20 Modern (and now d20 Future) products. I can foresee books of mecha, vehicles, cybernetics, races, creatures, whole PLANETS being detailed.

The book was bareboned.

I think it was the best choice they could have made.

Too much detail stifles creativity.

 

[Ranger REG]

I would. WOTC obviously figured that not enough folk would, though.

Considering that d20 Modern is their third top-selling RPG rules product (behind D&D and Star Wars), I don't blame them being conservative. And with the vocal minority (on this board and on Wizards') giving them scattered ideas of what each of them like, it's hard to tell which product would sell well.

Personally, d20 Future is a decently smart move. It may appeal not just d20 Modern gamers but I'm going to venture a wild guess that it can also appeal to Star Wars gamers, too?

 

[trancejeremy]

Why didn't they make a SUPPLEMENT book (not a CORE RULEBOOK) that is 384 pages and costs $39.95?



Exactly how many of you would be willing to drop that much for a supplement to a $40 core rulebook?

Er, most?

224 pages for $35 is not a bargain compared to 388 pages for $40 (the latter the size/price of D20 Modern). I think most people would pay $5 for 144 more pages.

I know, that's likely not reasonable, since D20 Modern no doubt was printed more, being a core book. But a lot of stuff seems to have been cut out of D20 Future, rendering it much less useful than it should have been. I would have paid another $5 for 32 or 48 so pages (which is reasonable)

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

D20 Future = 6.4 Pages Per Dollar

D20 Modern = 9.7 Pages Per Dollar.

So had they increased the scope, pages, AND price we'd actually be getting a better deal for our gaming dollar.

Just a little quickie math. I was disappointed when I realized that D20 Future was 35 bucks and only as big as Menace Manual.

--fje

 

[Ranger REG]

But a lot of stuff seems to have been cut out of D20 Future, rendering it much less useful than it should have been.

For example?

My main concern is the space vehicle combat rules. Does d20 Future have what I need to run a basic spaceship combat encounter? Is there something crucially missing from the basic rules? Is there something crucially missing from the basic ship creation rules?

I would have paid another $5 for 32 or 48 so pages (which is reasonable)

To be brutally honest, I have seen far more unreasonable gamers. Guys like us are a treasure. Who knows? If gamers like d20 Future and demand more, then by our demands we give WotC the incentive to publish more material.

 

[Malacoda]

Sure thing. Take the Boost Armor (boosts Strength, speed, and Reflex saves), add in the Environmental Seal gadget (function in any environment), an Integrated Equipment (Jet Pack) gadget, a Neg-Grav Booster gadget (benefits of low-gravity, such as improved carrying/lifting capacity), and you should be set. You'll probably not be able to lift a car with this, but that could be accomplished by simply creating another gadget that enhances Lifting Capacity.

Point taken on the jet pack. I looked for such a thing and didn't see it. I don't really like the lifting solution, though.

For me the point is that many of the systems are severely limited in options. You show that it is not as inflexible as I first implied, and I will admit my error, but I still don't think it has been shown to be as flexible as I think it should be.

For some this won't matter. And I say more power to them. But for me, d20 Future isn't really cutting it on multiple levels. It's not what I was hoping for.

 

[SpiralBound]

D20 Future = 6.4 Pages Per Dollar

D20 Modern = 9.7 Pages Per Dollar.

So had they increased the scope, pages, AND price we'd actually be getting a better deal for our gaming dollar.

Just a little quickie math. I was disappointed when I realized that D20 Future was 35 bucks and only as big as Menace Manual.

--fje

Umm... I think that your quickie math may have been a little too quick. While a straight up comparative division of the page count into the retail price will yield those two figures, I don't think that it really means anything. First off your formula (retail price / page count) doesn't take all the variables into account. What about the number of copies printed? I'm willing to be that the print run for D20 Modern was bigger than D20 Future. What about the facts that printing costs continuously increase over time and that the D20 Modern was printed a while before D20 Future?

I don't know all the factors that went into the production & printing costs versus the retail price, I also suspect that neither does anyone else on this board. I think that debating what the page count to retail price ratio should have been is bordering on the ridiculous. They could double the retail price of any RPG book on the market and we'd still be getting excellent value for the money. How can I make such a statement? Easily, just compare it to ANY other common recreational activity that 4 or more people could enjoy.

Let's assume 4 people, partaking of an activity for 6 hours, twice a month. (I personally game once per week on average, but I also know people who only game once every month) D20 Future costs $35 plus apparently you also need D20 Modern ($45? I forget) Let's bump them up to 40 and 50 to cover misc like pencils, scrap paper, and character sheets. then give everyone a $6 dice budget. Assuming that the average campaign lasts 6 months and that we're only going to use these two books for one campaign before they mysteriously disintegrate, we still end up with 72 hours of use from $114 dollars worth of equipment. That's six months of entertainment for four people that costs approx. $1.53 per hour. Shall we compare that to half a year of amateur sports? Going to 72 hours worth of theatre or even rental movies? Going to a dance bar or pool hall twice a month for 6 months? C'mon people, complaining about the price of a RPG book is just plain silly!!!

P.S. I know that my calculations are also simplistic and silly, but I think that fact only further proves my point. A line of arguement regarding a RPG book that is predicated upon the dollar value of the book itself is just a waste of time that could be better spent on making meaningful comments on the value of the books' actual content, not it's pagecount versus retail price ratio... Sheesh!

 

[RodneyThompson]

Point taken on the jet pack. I looked for such a thing and didn't see it. I don't really like the lifting solution, though.

OK, so create a new gadget that increases Lifting Capacity. That specific option might not be in the book, but that doesn't mean the system won't support it.

For me the point is that many of the systems are severely limited in options. You show that it is not as inflexible as I first implied, and I will admit my error, but I still don't think it has been shown to be as flexible as I think it should be.

Wow, if the gadget system limits your options, I'd hate to see what you think of most RPGs without dynamic equipment modifications. In all seriousness, is it just that there aren't ENOUGH gadgets, or what? I mean, there's only so much space in a single book...