I just got D20 Future and I love it! [hugs his copy]

[JEL]

Well, I was also rude, JEL, and I apologize for that.

No problem.

I just feel like condemning the whole book on the basis of a four-page campaign outline is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Although I haven't seen the book yet (c'mon, birthday list! go, birthday list!), I'd be willing to bet that minor tweaks--or even character creation focused on that goal--would fix what's "wrong" with the Star Frontiers races.

I'm condemning the whole book for not being generic enough and not covering the various topics very well. The SF races were just icing on the cake, so to speak.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Just to be clear, here since I don't have the book, yet.

You guys are making sound like there are no extra psionic powers or classes in d20 Future? Is that correct?

... as for the need to "balance" out any extra psionics with extra magic for Science Fantasy games (40k. Mutant Chronicles, etc). I personaly think that's like throwing a bucket of water into the ocean. The basic d20 Modern book has like twice as many spells compred to psionic powers, never mind that magic runs off off one stat, while psionics needs several stats for a non-specialist.

The part about the multiple stats is a problem, and I'd be upset if they didn't fix it and yet put it into D20 Future. I'd rather they get a working psionics system first before printing it - I'd like to see something based on the XPH, which actually works, but the Modern people seemed unwilling to make this change.

If you include the Arcana stuff from the SRD, psionics lags behind a lot! If anything, psionics should have a noticiable presence in d20 Future just to play catch up.

And with a year or two of playtesting, and some more pages, it can do so. But not before.

I looked over the gagdet system, and didn't find it to be very useful for powered armour. Maybe I missed something.

Maybe. I don't have the book. Do they have a method of making up new Gadget points? Do they have anything to boost Strength?

Anyway, if you want stats for powered armor, I'll give them to you. I'll just use a slight modification on the Star Wars rules.

You disagree that they should have waited, or do you disagree that it is an important part of a sci-fi toolkit approach? Or that mutant powers are more relavent?

While psi is not typically part of the harder sci-fi, it is very common in "softer" sci-fi, and especially sci-fi TV, such as Trek or B5. I don't see how anyone can say psionics are not sci-fi relavent.

I disagree that they could have balanced it with the time they had, while mutations are a lot easier. Except for those that have x uses per day, and I don't know if they have any such mutations.

This is only true if the primary purpose of the rest of d20 Future is to support the sample settings.

I think people who use that setting would be annoyed if there's no spell that would let you survive a vacuum, or what not. They would have to include at least a few new spells.

 

[Von Ether]

The part about the multiple stats is a problem, and I'd be upset if they didn't fix it and yet put it into D20 Future. I'd rather they get a working psionics system first before printing it - I'd like to see something based on the XPH, which actually works, but the Modern people seemed unwilling to make this change.

IMHO, it is becuause most d20 Modern characters focus only on stat. In that case, having a PC who can focus on psionics with his +4 in Str is big temptation. In other words, the old version works better in d20 Modern than it does in DnD. If WotC actually came out with d20 modern psionic classes for each attribute, the old system would become nigh entrenched in d20 Modern.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

IMHO, it is becuause most d20 Modern characters focus only on stat. In that case, having a PC who can focus on psionics with his +4 in Str is big temptation. In other words, the old version works better in d20 Modern than it does in DnD. If WotC actually came out with d20 modern psionic classes for each attribute, the old system would become nigh entrenched in d20 Modern.

Not quite what I meant. I think psionics should not use physical stats, period, just like in the XPH. This way you don't get a praetorian frank savant/kineticist who could also cheese the system.

 

[RodneyThompson]

Will the gagdet system allow me to make powered armour suits that are more heavily armoured, can lift small cars, or can fly? (or at least make greatly boosted jumps, a la Starship Troopers).

If so, then I concede that it is sufficient.

Sure thing. Take the Boost Armor (boosts Strength, speed, and Reflex saves), add in the Environmental Seal gadget (function in any environment), an Integrated Equipment (Jet Pack) gadget, a Neg-Grav Booster gadget (benefits of low-gravity, such as improved carrying/lifting capacity), and you should be set. You'll probably not be able to lift a car with this, but that could be accomplished by simply creating another gadget that enhances Lifting Capacity.

When designing this chapter, I tried to cover all the bases and provide examples because I knew there was no way I could get EVERYTHING. And a lot was cut for space reasons, too, that might see their way into future books or even a web enhancement. The gadget system is specifically designed to be a set of building blocks and I'll be interested to see if there's anything that absolutely cannot be done, barring the need for a new gadget or two. I think it's unreasonable to expect the book to cover every possible piece of technology in any sci-fi setting, but the gadget system comes darn close.

 

[RodneyThompson]

I'm condemning the whole book for not being generic enough and not covering the various topics very well. The SF races were just icing on the cake, so to speak.

JEL,

If you would like to compile a list of specific complaints (aside from Star Frontiers races, which I did not work on) and their solutions, that would help me out a lot in perhaps answering some of your questions. Unfortunately I'm a little confused, since you seem to be saying it's not generic enough, and yet at the same time it's too generic. What, specifically, would you say is missing from the book? This is an honest question, I would like to know.

Plus, there is already a surprising amount of headway being made on physically enhancing powered exoskeletons, so I am not sure why you need to wait until PL8 to get one.

Yeah, that's why I included the note in the earlier part of the chapter saying that some campaigns will need to shift around some objects in various PLs. PL 8 is probably the point at which exoskeletons would be as common and convenient as, say, a laptop computer is to us. That's what the PL really defines: where it's no longer unusual technology.

 

[thol]

I would like to preface this post by saying that from what I have seen so far, I like the book.

That said, I have a few things to say as far as the SF races go...

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, and they do give credit to the original game at the beginning of the book, but the Star Law races are almost taken word for word from the Star Frontiers Expanded Rule Book.

Now that's probably a good thing, and why mess with a good thing?

To whoever said the races in Star Law are simply "a tribute" I have to disagree. Those who remember SF remember it fondly, and those who will really want to play that setting with d20 rules, I would bet want to remain as close to the original races as possible.

The darkvision is bogus, Vrusk losing ambidexterity and gaining equipment penalties is horrible, and the stat adjustments were poorly done. That of course, is my opinion, but after seeing that setting description, I would rather them have left it out altogether in favor of giving extra space to another chapter that really needed it, such as cybernetics (or adding psionics).

Now I'm just going to do the conversion myself, and do it right. Of course no one can publish anything based on correctly converted SF races, as they wouldn't comply with the OGL. That's what really bothers me. From here on out, anything based on that setting that gets published will be divergent from what a large majority of the SF fans remember and liked. And that's too bad.

 

[Von Ether]

Not quite what I meant. I think psionics should not use physical stats, period, just like in the XPH. This way you don't get a praetorian frank savant/kineticist who could also cheese the system.

I understood, I was just explaining my nickel and dime theory on why d20 Modern fans see no reason to move on to the XPH.

 

[thol]

Moridin, maybe you can answer this question.

Why didn't they go with a book with the page count size of d20 Modern? It would have been worth the money.

 

[RodneyThompson]

Moridin, maybe you can answer this question.

Why didn't they go with a book with the page count size of d20 Modern? It would have been worth the money.

I can't answer that, because I'm not the person that makes those decisions. All I can say is probably just that they didn't want to spend the money on that. I would have liked more page space (believe me, hard editing decisions had to be made) but we tried to do the best with the space we had.