D&D General I Just Want To Teleport and Stab Things

The earliest way to achieve a true teleport that does not have any limitations, to my knowledge, is Misty Step.
Cloud Goliath
Or Eladrin
It's not wild heart barbarian plus a little. Using dash and disengage does nothing if your speed is already reduced to zero. You can't escape grapples, you can't easily get out of prone, you can't ignore barriers or terrain, and you can't move in three dimnsions without an additional movement type.
Misty step doesn't get you out of prone either, and you can absolutely jump as a barbarian (Advantage on Str).

And while those are more things, those things don't come up very often. You could go several sessions before Misty Step is used for more than Disengageing.
It's not cartographer plus a little. Cartographer requires at least 3 levels of investment for a form of teleportation that is extremely limited.
"spend an amount of movement equal to half your Speed (round down) to teleport to an unoccupied space you can see within 10 feet of yourself"

Thus you can teleport 10' * 2 = 20', every turn.

Slower than walking, but it's unlimited teleportation.
And even in the example of a shadow monk, you need a minimum of 6 levels worth of investment,
I think you misunderstood. I was saying it needs to be split into 2 different features.

I.e.
Level X: better movement
Level Y: even better movement (telport)

Saying the shadow monk take "6 levels" of investment makes it sound like they have 5 dead levels where they get nothing. Their movement feature is interspersed with the damage and defense features.
The only officially supported way I know of off the top of my head to achieve at will, unconditional teleportation is a level 17 wizard with misty step as one of their spell mastery spells.
Boon of Dimensional Travel.
And again, Cartographer.
To consider game balance around a mechanic, you cannot ignore what the system already supports or how it is implemented.
I compared it to the other movement features.
It's maybe 1.5x to 2x better.

Or see Goliath, which gives you a pretty direct comparison.

Cloud: teleport 30'
Fire: +1d10 damage.
Teleport allows you to do things even flight cannot.
So does having a swim speed. Or darkvision.
It allows you to move without using movement.
Not neccicaraly. Again, see cartographer.
It allows you to ignore grapples, opportunity attacks, manacles, jail cell bars, traps, lava pits, etc. You can disappear from sight into a hidden location in a way that makes it more difficult for enemies to find your new location. It eliminates the need for certain kinds of athletics or acrobatics checks altogether.
I don't know if it let's you escape manacles.
If it did, wouldn't you also "escape" your armor and arrive naked everywhere?
the designers seem to believe it is a powerful enough ability that it is gate-kept even harder than flight.
Not at all.
Misty Step is a level 2 spell.
Flight is a level 3 spell.
Teleportation is always limited either in scope or number of uses.
I don't see anyone suggestion you can teleport unlimited distance.
30' seems to be the default.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Cloud Goliath
Or Eladrin

Both these races gain access to a form of teleport, but they are limited by proficiency bonus number of uses per long rest. This further shows that even when races gain native access to teleport, it is limited by usage. I think this further shows that teleportation is limited much more strictly than something like a fly speed, which is in itself fairly controversial for low level characters.

Misty step doesn't get you out of prone either, and you can absolutely jump as a barbarian (Advantage on Str).

No, but you can misty step while prone or with 0 speed or when grappled. Honestly, I'm struggling to understand how jumping as a barbarian is relevant. Even a barbarian is limited to a horizontal jump distance of their strength score, or a high jump of 3 + their strength modifier, assuming a 10ft running start. Both of those require movement, and are far more limited than what can be accomplished with a 30ft misty step in any direction. Additionally, by RAW your jump distance is still limited to your normal movement limit. Even with a 1st level jump spell tripling your jump distance, you can't jump farther than your movement speed on a turn without also dashing or otherwise increasing your normal movement rate.

And while those are more things, those things don't come up very often. You could go several sessions before Misty Step is used for more than Disengageing.

Right, but a fireball spell may also only ever be used once every couple of sessions. The fact that things don't come up often does not in and of itself suggest you should have more access to it.

"spend an amount of movement equal to half your Speed (round down) to teleport to an unoccupied space you can see within 10 feet of yourself"

Thus you can teleport 10' * 2 = 20', every turn.

Slower than walking, but it's unlimited teleportation.

I reread the cartographer ability. It's actually pretty cool. And yes, you can teleport up to 20ft per turn (40ft if you dash), or you can teleport up to 70ft (140ft if you dash) if you are teleporting next to characters holding your maps within 30ft of you. But it still requires that you have movement to spend, meaning it is useless when grappled or restrained (one of the big benefits of teleporting). Additionally, you are technically making mini-teleporting jaunts. Can you use it to cross a 20ft ravine? Technically, you appear in mid-air over the ravine. RAW suggests you immediately start falling, and when falling it is immediate up to a distance of 500ft (per Xanathar's if you are falling more than 500ft, you instantly fall 500ft at the start of your turn and another 500ft at the end of your turn). So the fact that it is multiple short teleporting hops may also limit the utility. Or change it to crossing 20ft of lava. You are going to appear, even for an instance, on the lava surface at the midpoint. Do you take that 10d10 fire damage?

Saying the shadow monk take "6 levels" of investment makes it sound like they have 5 dead levels where they get nothing. Their movement feature is interspersed with the damage and defense features.

I didn't say or even suggest those were dead levels. But it is an example of the level of commitment one needs to engage with in order to unlock that kind of ability. Teleport, as it currently exists in 5e, is always limited by either usages per rest or strict conditions on its usage. If a character can access a better version of teleport with fewer restrictions, it devalues the Shadow Monk as a subclass, especially given that it is the most expansive form of teleport for the available level. This is another form of mechanical balance that should be considered when designing new mechanics. If a new mechanic invalidates an established mechanic, then is it truly balanced?

Boon of Dimensional Travel.
And again, Cartographer.

Thanks. But Boon of Dimensional Travel requires you to be at least 19th level, which further proves my point.

But even the cartographer's version of teleport is extremely limited, even if it can be used at will (assuming you have the movement to spend). It's very short jaunts unless you are joining a character with one of your maps, and is useless when grappled or restrained.

There's also a cantrip in Keith Baker's Quickstone called Orien Step. It's unlimited teleportation, but its an action for 5ft, and specifies you cannot teleport through solid objects or out of manacles and similar restraints.

I compared it to the other movement features.
It's maybe 1.5x to 2x better.

I think it is better to instead compare it to other abilities that grant forms of teleportation. Teleportation is not like other forms of movement. Looking at the existing feats, racial abilities, class abilities, and items that grant teleportation is a better place to start for effective balancing of mechanics, at least from my perspective.

Or see Goliath, which gives you a pretty direct comparison.

Cloud: teleport 30'
Fire: +1d10 damage.

Both examples are limited to a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus per long rest. Whether its the cloud's jaunt or the fire's burn, its gonna be no more than twice per long rest until level 5.

So does having a swim speed. Or darkvision.

I don't really understand the comparison. We can see the way the designers treated swim speeds and darkvision. They have a low impact on the game balance, hence why they are so easily obtained in ways that are not limited in times used or constraints on usage. Teleport is treated much more cautiously.

Not neccicaraly. Again, see cartographer.

Fair. But even then you aren't moving far, and can't get out of grapples or restraint.

I don't know if it let's you escape manacles.
If it did, wouldn't you also "escape" your armor and arrive naked everywhere?

Ok, maybe it's fair to rule you can't escape manacles. This is an area more for DM fiat to decide. But there are still tons of other utility advantages teleport would allow you to escape.

Not at all.
Misty Step is a level 2 spell.
Flight is a level 3 spell.

Yea, but I can get an permanent fly speed at level 1 by being an aarakocra or fairy. I can't get similar access to teleportation without it being limited to twice per long rest.

I don't see anyone suggestion you can teleport unlimited distance.
30' seems to be the default.

I didn't say or suggest unlimited distance. I'm saying you can either do it only a certain number of times per rest, or there are heavy constraints placed on the quality of the teleport (which can include factors like distance traveled, the kind of action required, using resources like spell slots, requiring expending movement, limiting it to areas of darkness, requiring certain conditions to activate, etc).
 

I reread the cartographer ability. It's actually pretty cool. And yes, you can teleport up to 20ft per turn (40ft if you dash), or you can teleport up to 70ft (140ft if you dash) if you are teleporting next to characters holding your maps within 30ft of you. But it still requires that you have movement to spend, meaning it is useless when grappled or restrained (one of the big benefits of teleporting)
LIke I said, it's better than a single character level could give. It needs to be a multi-level feature.

Rogues don't suddenly nget 10d6 sneak attack. The power adds up over multiple levels.
Additionally, you are technically making mini-teleporting jaunts. Can you use it to cross a 20ft ravine?
No. And misty step can't cross a 40' ravine.
Flying can though.

If a character can access a better version of teleport with fewer restrictions, it devalues the Shadow Monk as a subclass, especially given that it is the most expansive form of teleport for the available level.
That's conflicts with your previous statement
1: has to do the same as others
2: can't do the same as others.

Also Shadow monk gets 60' teleport as well advantage on an attack. And the ability to make darkness to remove that restriction (which also does more than just teleport)
But even the cartographer's version of teleport is extremely limited, even if it can be used at will (assuming you have the movement to spend). It's very short jaunts unless you are joining a character with one of your maps, and is useless when grappled or restrained.
Hence why I say it takes 2 separate features.

I.e.
Feature 1: Portal Jump: spend half your movement to teleport 10' (already exists)

Feature 2: Improved Portal Jump: spend half your movement to teleport 20'

Maybe have a 3rd feature at higher level to make it 30'.

Both examples are limited to a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus per long rest. Whether its the cloud's jaunt or the fire's burn, its gonna be no more than twice per long rest until level 5.
If
30' teleport 2x per rest = +1d10 damage 2x per rest
Then
30' teleport at-will = +1d10 damage at will.

Doesn't mean you should get it as a racial feature, but most classes get +damage.
But there are still tons of other utility advantages teleport would allow you to escape.
Yes, and? Characters are allowed to be able to have situational benefits.

Do you expect to be thrown in jail more than proficiency bonus times per day? On the same day where you need to cross 20' ravines multiple times?
I didn't say or suggest unlimited distance. I'm saying you can either do it only a certain number of times per rest, or there are heavy constraints placed on the quality of the teleport (which can include factors like distance traveled, the kind of action required, using resources like spell slots, requiring expending movement, limiting it to areas of darkness, requiring certain conditions to activate, etc).
All the suggestions used movement / bonus action and had limited distance.
 

Sad, when you answer someone's question on how to do something and all they can do is show that they are ungrateful and idiotic.
Yeah, maybe next time you should actually do that... answer their question on how to do something... rather than nitpick their example by saying "Well, ackshully..." and trying explain how their example was wrong.

Telling someone what Nightcrawler's "teleportation" actually is is not answering the question. And thus there's a reason why they might be "ungrateful" for your lack of help. And let's not even get into the name-calling, as I'm sure a mod will be stepping in about that soon enough.
 

Sad, when you answer someone's question on how to do something and all they can do is show that they are ungrateful and idiotic.

Mod note:

You didn't answer the question, and then you get insulting when that gets pointed out to you?

Treat folks better than that going forward, please.
 

Sure.

It's equivalent to
The mobile feat + a little.
The wild heart barbarian + a little.
The shadow monk + a little.
The Cartographer + a little.

It's more than any other mobility feature, but not a huge amount more.

I.e. 2 levels worth.
Using cartogropher as the comparison, they get to cast spells on allies even if they have no line of sight or effect, amd know where allies are without seeing them, on top of teleporting.

As you point out after the quoted post, shadow monk gets 60ft + advantage + the ability to create darkness.

And also level 6 isn't that high it is just higher than i want to wait for what is, for me, the defining feature.

So if you take the shadow monk and move casting darkness to level 6, and at level 3 you get misty step at will, i think that works fine and is balanced. Then level 6 gets to go 60ft and get advantage if they cast misty step and meet the shadow requirements.

Or the cartogropher, an offensive version might have a slightly longer base teleport plus a bonus action ability to teleport again (also a short distance) or to gain a damage bonus when you teleport.
 

LIke I said, it's better than a single character level could give. It needs to be a multi-level feature.

Rogues don't suddenly nget 10d6 sneak attack. The power adds up over multiple levels.

No. And misty step can't cross a 40' ravine.
Flying can though.


That's conflicts with your previous statement
1: has to do the same as others
2: can't do the same as others.

This right here seems to represent the struggle I am having with your argument. You are conflating things that are not necessarily the same. I never said things have to be the same or can't do the same. I am saying that things need to be compared to what already exists, and cannot be considered in a vacuum. You're right, rogues don't suddenly get 10d6 sneak attack, and shadow monks and cartographer artificer's don't just start with varying degrees of teleportation. They come online only after multiple levels of class investment.

A cartographer's teleport is unlimited in number of uses, but is way worse than misty step. Both can be achieved by level 3. But their scopes are still very different. It is also clear from the existing design and mechanics that designers treat teleportation differently than they treat other forms of movement. If you want a teleport that you can use at will like a cantrip, without at least 6 levels of investment (like with the shadow monk), you aren't going to be able to achieve that. And even with those 6 levels, there are still limitations (needing to be in dim light).

Also Shadow monk gets 60' teleport as well advantage on an attack. And the ability to make darkness to remove that restriction (which also does more than just teleport)

Hence why I say it takes 2 separate features.

I.e.
Feature 1: Portal Jump: spend half your movement to teleport 10' (already exists)

Feature 2: Improved Portal Jump: spend half your movement to teleport 20'

Maybe have a 3rd feature at higher level to make it 30'.

Right, but when you say two different features, does that mean a feat tree? Does that mean a subclass archetype? If it's feats, then that means you can't get the second feature until level 8 (level 4 if the second feat isn't level locked and you can start with the feat at level 1). If it's a subclass, that means the second feature comes online at the earliest level 6 (like with the shadow monk). And it requires a focused concept and dedicated execution. If you want to multiclass, you inherently delay access to these features.

You say things like "two separate features." But you can't just pick and choose when you get these features without using a totally different system than D&D.

If 30' teleport 2x per rest = +1d10 damage 2x per rest
Then
30' teleport at-will = +1d10 damage at will.

Doesn't mean you should get it as a racial feature, but most classes get +damage.

I disagree. As I see it, some features scale linearly, and others scale quadratically. I would argue that an at-will, resourceless, 30ft teleport is way more useful and impactful than a consistent +1d10 fire damage (the most resisted damage type in the game). Also, please show me one character build that gets a consistent, at will, no circumstance, no resource cost +1d6 damage or more to your attacks that comes online before level 6.

Sure, rogues get +1d6 sneak attack at level one. But that is the whole identity of the rogue, and even the +1d6 sneak attack has conditions (must have advantage or target within 5ft of ally, cannot have disadvantage, can only be applied once per turn). If you want to make a whole new base class where teleportation is their identity, then you have more design space to play with. Otherwise, you have to accept you need to plan and wait for a desirable form of teleportation to come online around level 5 at the earliest.
 

Otherwise, you have to accept you need to plan and wait for a desirable form of teleportation to come online around level 5 at the earliest.
I know you are arguing with someone else, but...

Thus is why i asked in the op if anyone knew of any 3pp or homebrew class or subclass that hits the mark.

A class is just plain easier to fit the whole thing, using a scale by level format or otherwise making it a central feature.

Also, it doesnt need to be balanced for broad use, it can just be balanced as a one time homebrew for a specific character. Doesnt matter if multiclassing makes level 1 teleport too powerful, because no one will ever multiclass dip the class.

Additionally, with a subclass, compare exusting subclasses with teleports. Do you really think that the archfey warlock couldnt have at-will 30ft bonus acrion teleport and lose all secondary benefits?

I mean the cartogropher gets to keep their BA, have 20ft total per turn of teleporting (or double if they dash), and gets way more teleport distance if they are shooting to allies, and really cool support abilities.

designing an offensive version would almost certainly have a little more teleporting, and gain lomg distance ports later on, along with extra attack and the like. Or mayne the same teleporting at level 3 but replace ally with enemy and add a Death Mark that also gives bonus damage, make teleport and damage scale with class level, and give teleport spells as bonus always prepared spells. Bam(f)! Done!
 

A cartographer's teleport is unlimited in number of uses, but is way worse than misty step.
dunno about that. It doesn't take your bonus action, and is unlimited.

cartographer 3, paladin X can teleport and smite.

Or cartographer 3, wild heart 3, can dash and telport 4 times.
Right, but when you say two different features, does that mean a feat tree? Does that mean a subclass archetype?
I made suggestion for both ways.

Origin feat (restricted teleport) + general feat (30' no restrictions).

Or using rogue who already has a bonus action disengaged at level 2, upgrading to bonus action teleport at level 3 as the subclass (and longer range teleport at level higher level subclass)

Also, please show me one character build that gets a consistent, at will, no circumstance, no resource cost +1d6 damage or more to your attacks that comes online before level 6.
Sneak attack.
Or multi-attack.
Or Firebolt scaling.
you have to accept you need to plan and wait for a desirable form of teleportation to come online around level 5 at the earliest.
depends on your definition of "desirable".
 


Enchanted Trinkets Complete

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Remove ads

Top