D&D (2024) I like the new Warlock

[mamba]

The wizard can choose to use his 3rd level slots to cast one of the other 3rd level spells he knows, whereas the mystic arcanist just doesn't get to use his class feature that day if there's no opportunity to cast the one spell he knows.

yes, missed the 5th level bit

 

[Neonchameleon]

Did you just claim I appealed to authority when the authority was the very thing YOU raised and responded to (and I didn't post or comment on this Treantmonk until you did)?

Actually on second thought, given that response, I think I know what happened here. There was an earlier video by Treantmonk about the Warlock - and when someone posted this new one you immediately claimed you had already seen it though it had literally only been released minutes before that post.

From my Youtube. Spot the red line right at the bottom. I have watched the video. I'm not sure why you think it was released minutes rather than a few hours before it was posted to this thread. Because I had seen it an hour or two earlier.

I think you think this is the earlier video, and have not even watched it.

I'm curious. What earlier video? I've just been looking through Treantmonk's YouTube and searching by videos I find the second most recent Warlock video to be "Warlock Summoner: D&D 5e" released 5 months ago. Have I missed something? Or have you lost so much in the way of perspective and objectivity that you are simply inventing up Treantmonk Youtube videos? (Or possibly it was exclusive to Patreons?)

Which is why you think my responding to your response about this new video you think was some appeal to authority - which obviously it wasn't. All I said was you were inaccurate in your mischaracterization of what he said in the video, which certainly isn't an appeal to authority of any kind.

And you've been asked by two people now for timestamps and responded with nothing more than false insinuations. This desperate claiming I watched a Treantmonk video that is not even on public Youtube or was produced five months ago and isn't about the OneD&D playtest is getting ridiculous.

Too ridiculous for me to bother to continue with. Goodbye

 

[Mistwell]

Could you give a timestamp please? I watched the video and I can't see it.

I generally have a lot of time for Chris, but his mocking dismissal of the issue that a number of us see without apparently understanding it was disappointing. I'm aware that he might just be reacting to youtube comments (which don't exactly have a lot of nuance.)

The issue of using half-casting progression (we'll get to potentially spending your invocations on Mystic Arcanum later,) is that combined with the extreme power of powered-up Eldritch Blast, it is hardly ever worth actually casting a spell if just Eldritch Blasting again is an option.
This is what Neonchameleon is talking about by "what it does round-to-round".

I don't think that is what NC is talking about. He will latch on to it after you said it, but given his prior explanation that's not what he meant. I am happy to answer your question below because it's crucially linked to the "we'll get to" part.

You might not get any spells worth casting instead of EB until 9th level, as the campaign winds up, which is where you could start dropping fireballs. Until then, you may just be reduced to Hexing and spamming Eldritch Blast all the time in fights.

Given the spell progression list he provides, which is definitely not half-caster but around 3/4 caster leaning more towards full caster than half-caster, I don't see how you can claim that.

Now Mystic Arcanum does give access to higher-level spells, but it is not like a full caster.

Of course it's not like a full caster AND all the other stuff the Warlock gets. As Treantmonk explained in the video, they now get the full Arcana list of spells and a lot more spell preps. If they also got all the other Warlock stuff AND full caster they would overshadow every other caster in the game by a mile.

They get a bit better than 3/4 caster. Which is a lot. A whole lot.

A 5th level Wizard can cast 2-3 Fireballs a day using their slots. A Warlock can cast a Fireball once a day, but that is all they can do with that slot. The Wizard could use those slots for Fly, or upcasting Hold Person, or whatever they have the spells prepared for.
If the Warlock's fights begin too close range, or they're in a city, or another reason why Fireball is not an appropriate spell to use, they effectively do not have a 3rd-level spell.

I am not going to play that cherry picking game of 5th level, which is precisely what you just did. It's funny that the argument I was responding to what Treantmonk didn't look at "the whole" class and then you respond with a cherry picked level to make a point about the whole class.

I think that Treantmonk looked at the new Warlock from an optimisation standpoint and saw that he could make some builds that worked well under the standard optimisation assumptions.
I believe that there is a lot of potential variety and interesting to play builds that the current Warlock can be that the new one can't however: Most of the build variety in the new one seems to be "will you spend almost all your invocations on Mystic Arcanum, or only half of them".)

Your request for a timestamp comes in here. He gives you his spell progression for the Warlock near the end where his initial take is you use some non-spell selections and some spell selections, swap out Mystic Arcanum selections where appropriate, and can lay out the spellcaster progression for those choices. Start the video around 41:30. Treantmonk lays out the progression, and there is no doubt round by round you can see a TON of spells they can cast. WAY more than the characterization your giving it.

 

[Mistwell]

The other video was called "Warlock: One Dnd is...GOOD?" [Edit: Looks like he blocked me, as I responded to the other post with a time stamp he asked for. OK then.]

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I think spending 0 invocations on mystic arcanum will be the way to go for optimizing the 1d&d warlock. You're an eldritch blaster or swordsman, not a full caster, so don't try to pretend you're one. Instead use your invocations to optimize and facilitate your eldritch blasting/sword swinging.

As crippled as Warlock Mystic Arcanum is compared to actual spellcasters, it is still going to be pretty hard to optimise a warlock without mystic Arcanum.
High-level spells are the most powerful and capable class abilities in the game. If they are on the table, all other invocations are going to be judged in comparison.

they have the full arcane list, so if this is true for the Warlock, it is also true for the Wizard (it isn’t, there are other spells they can choose)

Wizards have a list of spells that they can prepare every morning, and will generally have several spells that they can use in any one slot. Plus up-casting lower-level spells. So if Fireball isn't suitable, they can use Fly, or up-cast a lower-level spell etc.
Warlock has one spell for that slot. So if they selected Fireball, they can only use that slot for casting Fireball. If Fireball isn't suitable they don't get to use that slot until they level up.

I don't think that is what NC is talking about. He will latch on to it after you said it, but given his prior explanation that's not what he meant. I am happy to answer your question below because it's crucially linked to the "we'll get to" part.

I mean it was my reading of what they were saying. Its also been one of the problems with the new Warlock discussed on this forum.

Given the spell progression list he provides, which is definitely not half-caster but around 3/4 caster leaning more towards full caster than half-caster, I don't see how you can claim that.

You . . . might want to re-read my post then. - I start by discussing the base class, which is a half-caster before you start choosing class abilities, and then move on to why having a Mystic Arcanum for a spell is nowhere as good as being an actual spellcaster with that level slots.
So, the base class spell slots will have difficulties competing with just Eldritch Blast spamming, and if you choose to burn you invocations on Mystic Arcanum, they are not going to be as usable in combat as often as an actual spellcaster's slot is because they are far more situational.

Of course it's not like a full caster AND all the other stuff the Warlock gets. As Treantmonk explained in the video, they now get the full Arcana list of spells and a lot more spell preps. If they also got all the other Warlock stuff AND full caster they would overshadow every other caster in the game by a mile.

- Is this in response to someone else's post? I'm not aware of anyone in this thread asking for all of that. I know Treantmonk covered it, but I believed that it was in response to his youtube comments, which I don't make a point of reading, nor repeating.

I am not going to play that cherry picking game of 5th level, which is precisely what you just did. It's funny that the argument I was responding to what Treantmonk didn't look at "the whole" class and then you respond with a cherry picked level to make a point about the whole class.

OK. I am increasingly aware that you may not be an English speaker, but "cherry-picking" is generally regarded as a negative term.
Now, since you've thrown that insult twice, I'd like you to explain why you chose to use that particular slur, given that:
1: Fireball was the example spell already mentioned earlier in the post.
2: 5th level is literally the first time a Warlock can choose Mystic Arcanum.
3: Higher levels of spells are going to show commensurately less usage given lengths of campaigns etc.
4: Fireball spell was specifically called out by Treantmonk in his video.

And lastly, I would like you to tell me which level I should have chosen for a specific example, if 5th level was so upsetting to your sensitivities.

Your request for a timestamp comes in here. He gives you his spell progression for the Warlock near the end where his initial take is you use some non-spell selections and some spell selections, swap out Mystic Arcanum selections where appropriate, and can lay out the spellcaster progression for those choices. Start the video around 41:30. Treantmonk lays out the progression, and there is no doubt round by round you can see a TON of spells they can cast. WAY more than the characterization your giving it.

I explained why Mystic Arcanum doesn't match up to actual caster levels in the earlier post. The issue does not show up on the charts that he shows, which only cover spell slots, not what you can actually use them for.

The other video was called "Warlock: One Dnd is...GOOD?" [Edit: Looks like he blocked me, as I responded to the other post with a time stamp he asked for. OK then.]

Uh. . . . That is the video that Neonchameleon is talking about.
There is no "other video."

 

[tetrasodium]

As crippled as Warlock Mystic Arcanum is compared to actual spellcasters, it is still going to be pretty hard to optimise a warlock without mystic Arcanum.
High-level spells are the most powerful and capable class abilities in the game. If they are on the table, all other invocations are going to be judged in comparison.

Wizards have a list of spells that they can prepare every morning, and will generally have several spells that they can use in any one slot. Plus up-casting lower-level spells. So if Fireball isn't suitable, they can use Fly, or up-cast a lower-level spell etc.
Warlock has one spell for that slot. So if they selected Fireball, they can only use that slot for casting Fireball. If Fireball isn't suitable they don't get to use that slot until they level up.

How many invocations does the wizard in your example have? How about pact boons? What's the scaling rate for eldritch blast for a wizard? Seems like the answer to all of those is zero

 

[Neonchameleon]

The issue of using half-casting progression (we'll get to potentially spending your invocations on Mystic Arcanum later,) is that combined with the extreme power of powered-up Eldritch Blast, it is hardly ever worth actually casting a spell if just Eldritch Blasting again is an option.
This is what Neonchameleon is talking about by "what it does round-to-round".

I just thought I'd confirm that this is exactly what I am talking about and the big thing Treantmonk failed to look at.

I've pointed out numerous times on these boards that a one beam Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Hex (1d10 + Cha + 1d6 Force damage) is very comparable to the benchmark first level spell they are giving to all sorcerers Chaos Bolt (2d8 + 1d6 Random damage) and a two beam Eldritch Blast (2x (d10 + Cha) Force damage) is very comparable to the second level spell Scorching Ray (3x 2d6 Fire damage). Which makes the opportunity cost of a first or second level spell slot very high when you're already casting a spell expected to be of comparable power.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

. A 5th level Wizard can cast 2-3 Fireballs a day using their slots. A Warlock can cast a Fireball once a day, but that is all they can do with that slot. The Wizard could use those slots for Fly, or upcasting Hold Person, or whatever they have the spells prepared for.
If the Warlock's fights begin too close range, or they're in a city, or another reason why Fireball is not an appropriate spell to use, they effectively do not have a 3rd-level spell.

they have the full arcane list, so if this is true for the Warlock, it is also true for the Wizard (it isn’t, there are other spells they can choose)

Wizards have a list of spells that they can prepare every morning, and will generally have several spells that they can use in any one slot. Plus up-casting lower-level spells. So if Fireball isn't suitable, they can use Fly, or up-cast a lower-level spell etc.
Warlock has one spell for that slot. So if they selected Fireball, they can only use that slot for casting Fireball. If Fireball isn't suitable they don't get to use that slot until they level up.

How many invocations does the wizard in your example have? How about pact boons? What's the scaling rate for eldritch blast for a wizard? Seems like the answer to all of those is zero

Indeed. This reinforces my point that having a spell that they can cast that happens to be at the same level as the slots that an equivalent-level wizard has, does not make the Warlock any-where near as good a caster as the Wizard (a full caster.)

 

[Neonchameleon]

Indeed. This reinforces my point that having a spell that they can cast that happens to be at the same level as the slots that an equivalent-level wizard has, does not make the Warlock any-where near as good a caster as the Wizard (a full caster.)

If just having the slots was all that mattered and spell flexibility didn't then the PHB sorcerer would be an approximate match for the PHB wizard and the PHB Ranger for the PHB Paladin.

I've said in the past that the threshold is about four spells that can be cast out of any slot before you get diminishing returns; one for each pillar, and one interesting piece of weirdness that's fun when you get to cast it but is situational. The PHB Sorcerer felt hamstrung on two spells per spell level (few spells upcast well); Mystic Arcana gives you only one and no possibility of upcasting.

And one reason the PHB Warlock's spell list felt positively expansive at the table without being overwhelming despite being objectively smaller than the sorcerer was that you didn't need to split your number of spells known over multiple spell levels.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

High-level spells are the most powerful and capable class abilities in the game. If they are on the table, all other invocations are going to be judged in comparison.

Oh snap you did it. I understand why folks see such a disparity between full casters and everyone else.

I disagree just as strongly still, but at least I understand the premise underpinning the other side’s arguments now!