D&D (2024) I like the new Warlock

[Cap'n Kobold]

He does see it and talk about it. I think you've lost some objectivity on this topic. ANYONE who says they like the Warlock changes you go off on at this point.

Could you give a timestamp please? I watched the video and I can't see it.

I generally have a lot of time for Chris, but his mocking dismissal of the issue that a number of us see without apparently understanding it was disappointing. I'm aware that he might just be reacting to youtube comments (which don't exactly have a lot of nuance.)

The issue of using half-casting progression (we'll get to potentially spending your invocations on Mystic Arcanum later,) is that combined with the extreme power of powered-up Eldritch Blast, it is hardly ever worth actually casting a spell if just Eldritch Blasting again is an option.
This is what Neonchameleon is talking about by "what it does round-to-round".
You might not get any spells worth casting instead of EB until 9th level, as the campaign winds up, which is where you could start dropping fireballs. Until then, you may just be reduced to Hexing and spamming Eldritch Blast all the time in fights.

Now Mystic Arcanum does give access to higher-level spells, but it is not like a full caster. A 5th level Wizard can cast 2-3 Fireballs a day using their slots. A Warlock can cast a Fireball once a day, but that is all they can do with that slot. The Wizard could use those slots for Fly, or upcasting Hold Person, or whatever they have the spells prepared for.
If the Warlock's fights begin too close range, or they're in a city, or another reason why Fireball is not an appropriate spell to use, they effectively do not have a 3rd-level spell.

I think that Treantmonk looked at the new Warlock from an optimisation standpoint and saw that he could make some builds that worked well under the standard optimisation assumptions.
I believe that there is a lot of potential variety and interesting to play builds that the current Warlock can be that the new one can't however: Most of the build variety in the new one seems to be "will you spend almost all your invocations on Mystic Arcanum, or only half of them".)

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

I believe that there is a lot of potential variety and interesting to play builds that the current Warlock can be that the new one can't however: Most of the build variety in the new one seems to be "will you spend almost all your invocations on Mystic Arcanum, or only half of them".)

I think spending 0 invocations on mystic arcanum will be the way to go for optimizing the 1d&d warlock. You're an eldritch blaster or swordsman, not a full caster, so don't try to pretend you're one. Instead use your invocations to optimize and facilitate your eldritch blasting/sword swinging.

 

[mamba]

If the Warlock's fights begin too close range, or they're in a city, or another reason why Fireball is not an appropriate spell to use, they effectively do not have a 3rd-level spell.

they have the full arcane list, so if this is true for the Warlock, it is also true for the Wizard (it isn’t, there are other spells they can choose)

 

[Shardstone]

I think spending 0 invocations on mystic arcanum will be the way to go for optimizing the 1d&d warlock. You're an eldritch blaster or swordsman, not a full caster, so don't try to pretend you're one. Instead use your invocations to optimize and facilitate your eldritch blasting/sword swinging.

We just need some 6th-9th spell level equivalents for those.

Give me Eldritch Blast Machine Gun (fire it against every target in range) and Pact Blade Curses (place horrific curses on people you hit with multiple attacks on the same turn).

 

[Neonchameleon]

He does see it and talk about it. I think you've lost some objectivity on this topic. ANYONE who says they like the Warlock changes you go off on at this point.

To echo @Cap'n Kobold could you give me a timestamp please? I'd be interested in hearing an actual well-reasoned response from someone who was good at optimisation, and I'd be glad to see Treantmonk surprise and impress me. And I think appealing to authority while mis-claiming what that authority actually said in response to a very specific criticism shows that it's not my objectivity that's missing.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

they have the full arcane list, so if this is true for the Warlock, it is also true for the Wizard (it isn’t, there are other spells they can choose)

The wizard can choose to use his 3rd level slots to cast one of the other 3rd level spells he knows, whereas the mystic arcanist just doesn't get to use his class feature that day if there's no opportunity to cast the one spell he knows.

 

[Chaosmancer]

they have the full arcane list, so if this is true for the Warlock, it is also true for the Wizard (it isn’t, there are other spells they can choose)

Well... no.

A 5th level wizard with the full arcane spell list has picked two different 3rd level spells, potentially scribed more, and has the ritual Memorize Spell to swap between those spells if one is less effective than the other during the day, and can swap for free during a long rest. All just given to them.

A 5th level warlock has spent an eldritch invocation on Mystic Arcanum, and gets a single 3rd level spell. And no ability to change it until they level up. And this is a choice, meaning that people may make a different choice.

At level 6, the Wizard can potentially pick two more free 3rd level spells and could have scribed even more spells. The warlock's situation is unchanged.



Saying that a limit of high level spells is the same between the warlock and wizard in this case is just factually incorrect. These two things look nothing like each other


edit: And I forgot, the wizard can ALSO upcast any 1st or 2nd level spells using the 3rd level slot. Warlocks can't do that.

 

[Chaosmancer]

We just need some 6th-9th spell level equivalents for those.

Give me Eldritch Blast Machine Gun (fire it against every target in range) and Pact Blade Curses (place horrific curses on people you hit with multiple attacks on the same turn).

Yeah, the current invocation list is a little thin in places, and it still keeps a lot of options I've just never seen anyone use. Who takes Otherworldly Leap? It is not that useful.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The wizard can choose to use his 3rd level slots to cast one of the other 3rd level spells he knows, whereas the mystic arcanist just doesn't get to use his class feature that day if there's no opportunity to cast the one spell he knows.

Or an upcast second level spell (e.g. a two person Invisibility). This is the Spells Known vs Spells Prepared difference on a much larger scale than affected the PHB sorcerer and ranger. For Mystic Arcana an individual warlock doesn't have the entire arcane list. They have a spell list that consists of a single spell per slot.

Of course one reason the old warlock worked (that the One D&D one casually threw out) was that while an individual warlock might have only half a dozen spells on their spell list they had only one type of slot to split it over. And once you've got about four spells of your choice in there (offensive combat, social, exploration, and something else) if you can't use a slot that's on you. If you only have e.g. Fireball it's a great spell but it's only really useful in fights against large numbers of enemies. If you were the PHB ranger or the sorcerer you averaged two spells per type of spell slot.

 

[Mistwell]

To echo @Cap'n Kobold could you give me a timestamp please? I'd be interested in hearing an actual well-reasoned response from someone who was good at optimisation, and I'd be glad to see Treantmonk surprise and impress me. And I think appealing to authority while mis-claiming what that authority actually said in response to a very specific criticism shows that it's not my objectivity that's missing.

Did you just claim I appealed to authority when the authority was the very thing YOU raised and responded to (and I didn't post or comment on this Treantmonk until you did)?

Actually on second thought, given that response, I think I know what happened here. There was an earlier video by Treantmonk about the Warlock - and when someone posted this new one you immediately claimed you had already seen it though it had literally only been released minutes before that post.

I think you think this is the earlier video, and have not even watched it. Which is why you think my responding to your response about this new video you think was some appeal to authority - which obviously it wasn't. All I said was you were inaccurate in your mischaracterization of what he said in the video, which certainly isn't an appeal to authority of any kind.

If that's the case, I suggest you watch the video.

Regarding your bias, you have gone off on anyone who says they like the new changes to the class. You made a thread to bash it and when I made a thread saying I liked it, you went after anyone responding in that thread (not just me) about how wrong they are for liking it. So no, I don't have it wrong. You have bias here. You couldn't even let people say they liked the class without making sure they heard from you on how you knew better.

I stand by what I said. You've lost perspective on this one. You have a view which of course is fine. But you're not fine with others not sharing that same view. And you will bludgeon anyone who differs on this one.