I love D&D but not so much Dungeons, anyone else?

[Ahnehnois]

I've been DMing for ~15 years and run probably a single-digit number of scenarios I would describe as being "dungeons". They're fine for computer games, but not so great for pen and paper games, IMO.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I've been DMing for ~15 years and run probably a single-digit number of scenarios I would describe as being "dungeons". They're fine for computer games, but not so great for pen and paper games, IMO.

 

[Vanifae]

I've been DMing for ~15 years and run probably a single-digit number of scenarios I would describe as being "dungeons". They're fine for computer games, but not so great for pen and paper games, IMO.

I can agree with that, I have not run many adventures that I feel are very dungeon-like, I have run site based adventures but they tend to be part of a large narrative and my big issue is that I don’t have much patience for the dungeon narrative. To give a feel for how I run and perceive my games I use a movie or TV show formula. I like set pieces, I like providing atmosphere and then glossing over the tedium to get to the cool stuff. The crazy combat set piece in a vast chamber with exotic features or causeways or something else altogether interesting.

I like dramatic scenes overcoming some challenge like Indiana Jones or the Fellowship escaping Moria. That is what I try and shoot for. I should clarify that I wouldn’t use a skill challenge to skip straight to the BBEG I would probably use them as an abstract score sheet for how well the group is penetrating the dungeon/fortress/warren/sewer/etc without drawing too much attention or alerting the denizens of their presence. I could also use multiple skill challenges to make up larger “dungeon” crawls perhaps to disable defenses or find the sacrifices in the den of Orcus cultists. I would still probably utilize a rough map and even slow down the action to focus on a room by room search if that heightened the drama.

I just don’t care for checking for traps every five feet, or describing the umpteenth corridor that branches left and right and all that. Again I guess my focus is more cinematic and less tedium. Though I know one man’s tedium is another man’s milk and honey. It probably would not work for players that like the dungeon and mega dungeon crawl, but thankfully I think my players enjoy my set pieces and story focus.

Again I am open to ideas, I went to that link about the Slaughterhouse project, I didn’t really gain much from it? I also should add I don’t have much nostalgia for huge dungeons, I mean they are cool in an objective sense they look impressive but running one would probably not be terribly fun for me.

 

[Rel]

I can't follow you down that road. I love me a good dungeon crawl -- I just wouldn't like them for every session. I do know that one of the mods here, [MENTION=99]Rel[/MENTION], abstracted a dungeon crawl with a skill challenge, in his "mist demon" 4E campaign, but I'd have to let him or one of his players speak to how it was done. I don't have the link in the 4E forum handy, or I would point you to it.

Thanks for the Mention, Henry. The link is in my .sig for anybody who wants to read through my commentary thread.

The situation I think you're referring to is part of the very first adventure where there is an extensive series of mines that the players need to make their way through in order to get to freedom. Part of the design is that they enter the mines at the base of a plateau and need to make their way to the top, which is above the level of the poisonous Mist that covers most of the world.

Rather than describe every twist, turn and T-intersection in the place, I abstracted it into a skill challenge. Ultimately the PC's were successful in making their way to the upper layers of the Mines where they had to fight some degenerate Mist creatures. But I had it structured sort of like this:

After 1 Failure they ended up at a dead end where they'd have to fight some Kruthiks (bugs that had infested that part of the mine).

After the 2nd Failure they would get ambushed by a Mist Demon patrol.

Subsequent Failures would start costing them Healing Surges as they wandered, lost, within the poisonous Mist.

After 1 Success they'd find some carvings on the wall of an area of the mine that would hint at the history of the place.

After 2 Successes they'd find a minor cache of treasure that had lay hidden for a long time.

After 4 Successes they'd enter the edge of the Mist Demon lair (which was a small portion of the mines that I'd mapped out for a fairly big running battle).


So basically it was a dungeon that was mostly empty and mostly glossed over in narrative format, aided by a few skill rolls. It was still pretty interesting and it took very little time to get to the parts that contained the most fun. For players heavily focused on exploration this probably wouldn't have worked very well. For my crew it worked out great.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I love playing D&D and I love the newest incarnation 4E, I have just never enjoyed running dungeon crawls all that much.

Hello, nemesis.

Well, nearly. I also love playing D&D. However, "the newest incarnation". . . just no. And I have almost always enjoyed running dungeon crawls. And playing them, for that matter.

Maybe I am just not all that good at running dungeons I can admit that.

Huh. You strike me as more honourable and worthy than your average internet speculator already! Kudos.

they can be exciting?

Yes.

 

[Odhanan]

I'm afraid I can't go down that path either.

I love good dungeon crawls. They don't have to be dull, static, boring affairs. They are the lifeblood of this game. If I wasn't going down dungeons and fighting dragons down there, I would just end up playing another fantasy game.

 

[Beginning of the End]

With 4th Edition I find I could probably abstract many tedious dungeon crawls with a protracted skill challenge punctuated with exciting scenes of combat o drama. Anyone else try this, and as an addendum any advice to make dungeon crawling more fun to DM? For those that enjoy it what do you do that maybe I can do different? I tend to try to make it an interesting place but I find the pacing is what throws me off and the tedium of opening doors, checking for traps, describing hallways and all that is not exciting. I mean I find the idea of mega dungeons just off-putting but maybe they can be exciting?

Here's my first thoughts on reading your post:

(1) Running a successful dungeon is all about pacing.

(2) Good dungeons tell stories.

Re: Pacing. Not every moment in a game can be THE MOST EXCITING MOMENT IN THE UNIVERSE. You need the contrast of the quiet moments to make the exciting moments meaningful. But you also need to take advantage of the quiet moments to set up the context which will make those exciting moments meaningful.

Another way to think of it is that empty rooms are negative space. They're the moments of silence in a composition. The epic combats are the crescendos. If you compose a song which is just an endless crescendo, it's empty noise. If you compose a song that's over-burdened with silences, it's boring.

Re: Telling stories. Good dungeons are like mysteries. They're either "What's going on here?" or they're "What happened here?". And every room is a lead which may provide a clue which can solve that mystery and tell that story. (Of course some leads are red herrings and others are dead ends.)

Basically, you put these ideas together and what you end up with a more universal maxim about successful GMing: Bring the cool.

The "cool", of course, can be about more than just big ol' slug-fests. Dungeons are a delivery method for the cool. If the dungeon isn't delivering enough cool, then you've watered down your delivery method too much. Pour some more booze in there and strengthen that drink up.

 

[pemerton]

With 4th Edition I find I could probably abstract many tedious dungeon crawls with a protracted skill challenge punctuated with exciting scenes of combat o drama. Anyone else try this

There are some posts on this on Dungeon'sMaster.com:

Taking the Dungeon Out of Dungeons and Dragons — Dungeon's Master
Skill Challenge: The Dungeon Crawl — Dungeon's Master
Skill Challenge: Temple Treasure — Dungeon's Master

Also, I share your distaste for dungeon crawls. I don't like playing them or GMing them.

Good dungeons are like mysteries. They're either "What's going on here?" or they're "What happened here?". And every room is a lead which may provide a clue which can solve that mystery and tell that story.

I don't mind this occasionally - I wouldn't normally think of it as a dungeon crawl, because it's not about mapping out and looting the dungeon - the dungeon is simply a location in which a mystery is solved. Genrally when I run this sort of adventure, however, every room does provide a clue.

 

[Vanifae]

Great Advice on Skill Challenge Dungeons

That is basically what I would do as well; allow failures to generate encounters, dead ends, or some other moment that is a setback for the players. Like you said it probably would not work for “exploration” mind sets that want more detail or bust out the graph paper to draw the map.

I would not do this for every dungeon either, if it’s short or interesting enough to me I could definitely do it old school as well it just depends on my goals for the evening. Do I want a claustrophobic, dank, and mysterious atmosphere or do I want a more cinematic narrative that focuses on the highlights? I think mixing it up would probably be for the best I would probably lean more to the skill challenges with a few kill challenges mixed in… best typo ever.

The Surviving the Desert skill challenge on page 206 of the Dark Sun Campaign Setting actually would be an easy fit to extrapolate for a dungeon/exploration skill challenge with every two successes generating some kind of event/moment that the players have to overcome as a group challenge, combat encounter, or role playing wise. As an addendum I have been playing for 18-19 years and I have done dungeon crawls, playing them for me is probably more fun then running them. Could I do them sure, would I make a whole campaign out of it probably not? I do admit there is a certain visceral quality to dark mysterious places filled with peril and adventure.

I just think overall I like to focus on the action more so then a whole night of describing corridors and opening doors.

 

[Vanifae]

There are some posts on this on Dungeon'sMaster.com:

Taking the Dungeon Out of Dungeons and Dragons — Dungeon's Master
Skill Challenge: The Dungeon Crawl — Dungeon's Master
Skill Challenge: Temple Treasure — Dungeon's Master

Also, I share your distaste for dungeon crawls. I don't like playing them or GMing them.

The articles are exactly what I have been contemplating thank you.