D&D General "I make a perception check."

[GMforPowergamers]

That’s the key point of disagreement though. Nobody is saying they demand their players use specific words, they’re saying “A request to make a particular ability check does not make the player’s intent clear to me.”

and that is why I don't understand.

Persuading the king to help is perfectly clear to me
Perception seems clear that they want to use there senses (keen or dull) to notice things
Arcana seems clear to me they want to know if there character knows or could know something about arcane matters

the very fact that most examples given give BOTH a skill name AND action that could do it makes me think that most times they do understand.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

This an excellent point so, in case it hasn’t been asked already, for those that advocate for letting players just declare “I use X skill on Y“ how do you know whether it qualifies for advantage or disadvantage when the approach is unknown?

I don't grant advantage or disadvantage based on how well someone describes a skill or ability check any more or less then I give advantage or disadvantage based on how well someone describes an attack roll.

Now you can take actions BEFORE this with as much or as little description as you like to try to get advantage... but over all I prefer that you rely on in character abilities and skills.

 

[tetrasodium]

and that is why I don't understand.

Persuading the king to help is perfectly clear to me
Perception seems clear that they want to use there senses (keen or dull) to notice things
Arcana seems clear to me they want to know if there character knows or could know something about arcane matters

the very fact that most examples given give BOTH a skill name AND action that could do it makes me think that most times they do understand.

persuade is a verb, you are actively doing something. What you are expressing in the process might be in question but the fact that you are doing something like speaking to the king is almost certainly not
Perception is a noun, it is something you have or obtain not something you do

Some languages allow a speaker to verb or adjective a noun by adding various prefix/suffix/infix particles & such but english is not one of them. Not even looking at the etymology of perception as a word reinforce that it's a thing you obtain by doing something.

If it was still search & spot you could say "I want to use search" or "I want to use spot" & at least convey a sense of action to some degree even if it returns a question of where what or how. 5e doesn't have search & spot though

 

[Li Shenron]

Players (and GMs, honestly) are going to form mental shortcuts when taking the long way around does not matter. If the vast majority of "I look around" action declarations end in the exact same mechanical resolution, you are teaching them that the declaration is not material. If you are always going to just call for a Perception check anyway, why not both of you just cut to the chase?

I think this is pretty much the point for me, and why I prefer that my players do not use the mental shortcut.

I am not going to always call for a Perception check, in many cases I grant an auto-success and in many others an auto-fail, otherwise I call for a check when I am undecided about the outcome.

I prefer that the players make more specific choices such as "I look under the carpet", "I listen against the door", "I search the library shelf that has books about potions". If they have the intuition to choose the right spot, they usually find what is there to find > auto-success. When they are clueless, they can be more generic like "I search the whole room", which is likely to have an undecided outcome.

It's not like I would reprimend a player who says "I make a perception/investigation check", but I will certainly still need to ask what they mean with that, in order to set the DC.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

persuade is a verb, you are actively doing something. What you are expressing in the process might be in question but the fact that you are doing something like speaking to the king is almost certainly not
Perception is a noun, it is something you have or obtain not something you do

thank you for the English lesson, but again I am more worried about if I understand what they do or do not want to do.

Some languages allow a speaker to verb or adjective a noun by adding various prefix/suffix/infix particles & such but english is not one of them. Not even looking at the etymology of perception as a word reinforce that it's a thing you obtain by doing something.

dude... this is WAY too deep for a casual conversation with a friend (and that is what I think D&D is)

If it was still search & spot you could say "I want to use search" or "I want to use spot" & at least convey a sense of action to some degree even if it returns a question of where what or how. 5e doesn't have search & spot though

right but 'perception' can still grant you clarity of intent

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It's not like I would reprimend a player who says "I make a perception/investigation check", but I will certainly still need to ask what they mean with that, in order to set the DC.

you do realize some DO reprimand and try to 'teach' not to

 

[robus]

So, if a player describes their action so that an ability check isn't required, such as searching for the false bottom in the chest, does that mean if the same player describes in equivalent detail how they attack a target, do you forego the attack roll as well?

Outside of combat where the target is unaware of the skilled PC (likely assassin) and is basically a sitting duck with no obvious complications, I would adjudicate that it is an automatic success and they kill their target.

But never in a combat as there is too much chaos and uncertainty.

I realize this is bold, but I think it follows logically from the goal and approach system and combat rules should not apply to every violent PC action.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Outside of combat where the target is unaware of the skilled PC (likely assassin) and is basically a sitting duck with no obvious complications, I would adjudicate that it is an automatic success and they kill their target.

do you allow an NPC to do the same? If a MM1 assassin gets into the bed room a PC is in can they just kill them no roll?
(not an argument a real question... I wont even say 1 is right or 1 is wrong, cause I do things for PCs that NPCs don't get all the time myself)

 

[Umbran]

I think this is pretty much the point for me, and why I prefer that my players do not use the mental shortcut.

I am not going to always call for a Perception check, in many cases I grant an auto-success and in many others an auto-fail, otherwise I call for a check when I am undecided about the outcome.

My point is that the player habit will often be based on the perceived results. They are observing. If the cases where the GM actually uses the extra information seem a minority, to them it is easier to handle those as an exception, rather than the rule.

If they haven't played with a specific GM all that much, their habits will be based on their overall experience.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

you do realize some DO reprimand and try to 'teach' not to

Yes, jerk DMs and jerk players can ruin any game. No rule or roll of the dice or style of play is going to change that.