D&D General "I make a perception check."

[Mort]

If after I said it won't work, the player tells me he hides under the table anyway, it will autofail regardless of stealth skill. As for the door, the player will get a roll, but if someone walks into the room he's probably automatically going to be seen. You can't hide while in plain view of someone. If on the other hand the NPC just peeks his head into the room and scans, there's a good chance that the one behind the door will get away with it.

Yes, if the DM prompts the player that their action won't be successful and the player takes it anyway? Not much to say about that.

But if the DM asks for a declaration, the player makes it and then the DM declares it an autofail (because HE thought it was clearly not a smart move) - I have a problem with that. The DM clearly thought the situation was well outlined to the players but obviously it wasn't because players generally do not pick autfailing actions.

So, hopefully, if the stakes/conditions are properly outlined and the DM is acting in good faith - this doesn't happen. That make sense?

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, if the DM prompts the player that their action won't be successful and the player takes it anyway? Not much to say about that.

But if the DM asks for a declaration, the player makes it and then the DM declares it an autofail (because HE thought it was clearly not a smart move) - I have a problem with that. The DM clearly thought the situation was well outlined to the players but obviously it wasn't because players generally do not pick autfailing actions.

Yeah. Unless there's an in-fiction reason to do otherwise, I'm going to say something, because 1) the PC is probably smarter than that, and 2) given the shared imagined space, there's a good chance that we aren't imaging it the same way. I'm not going to gimp a player by not saying anything when the reasonable thing for me to do is say something, or at least give it a roll if the PC might or might not think of it.

So, hopefully, if the stakes/conditions are properly outlined and the DM is acting in good faith - this doesn't happen. That make sense?

Yep.

Edited to change player to PC in #1.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Why do I need a skill, though? I'm pulling the book case out so that I can clearly see the wall and the door behind it. What is the roll for?

to see if you notice the hidden door...
now again this is an assumption but a secret hidden door isn't normally easy to find... the fact that I made it a DC 8 fell well into what I call an easy check... but the same way I can pull out my couch 3 times and not find the book that I thought fell behind there and then someone else can and find it... how perceptive you are matters...

now I will admit if you think it's just a big honking hole in the wall with bright lights in the next room and just nudging anything clearly reveals that maybe I am working on a bad assumption... but then again I would most likely have give THAT to a passive of anyone trained in perception just walking by.

 

[Maxperson]

to see if you notice the hidden door...

It was hidden behind the bookcase. Once the bookcase was moved, it was no longer hidden.

now again this is an assumption but a secret hidden door isn't normally easy to find...

That's why I said concealed door behind the bookcase, not secret door. The door was concealed by the bookcase, not secretly placed into the wall.

but then again I would most likely have give THAT to a passive of anyone trained in perception just walking by.

The scenario was a door set into the wall such that peering behind the bookcase could miss it, but moving the bookcase could not. It was deliberately set up to show that there will be circumstances where a roll might be necessary or be automatically successful depending on the approach the player states for the PC.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

But I've also been told, that some DMs would consider one or both of those statements an autofail regardless of the character's stealth skill. And I have a problem with that - unless the DM makes the fictional positioning SO clear that there are no misunderstandings and the player actually has a good option they can take (or at the very least is 100% aware that there are no good stealth options and tries something else).

This is the equivalent of "no take backs!" I don't see anyone in this thread saying this.

If under the table is a place that is terrible to hide, hopefully that came across in my description of the environment in step one of the play loop. However, as people often develop slightly different visions of what a scene actually looks like, I would let the player know (as I said upthread): "any creature looking down is going to see you clear as day trying to 'hide' under that table... you sure you want to stay under there?" Then the player can make an informed decision for their PC to find another hiding spot or stick it out.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Sure,

But my point is - the table is just a fixture - it's something that happens to be in the room. The player of the high stealth character should be told (because his character is trained in stealth) IF hiding under it is an autofail - not have to find out the hard way.

Which is why, IMO, the player saying "I hide in the room - using the best means available.." is fine.

yeah this... if something that someone is good at would result in an auto fail it sounds MORE like the DM and Player are not on the same page not that the player made the wrong call.

Yet I've been told (in this very thread) that that's not specific enough, the player must declare something like "I hide under the table..." or "I hide behind the door..." or whatever. Now if the DM takes either of those statements and just goes with it (the actual statement doesn't matter just that the player made it) then great.

yeah the hide example gave auto pass and auto fails by at least 1 poster and had (maybe the same maybe a different) 1 poster say he would change the DC based on where you hid...

But I've also been told, that some DMs would consider one or both of those statements an autofail regardless of the character's stealth skill. And I have a problem with that - unless the DM makes the fictional positioning SO clear that there are no misunderstandings and the player actually has a good option they can take (or at the very least is 100% aware that there are no good stealth options and tries something else).

yeah... I get the feeling the same way people are (it almost seems purposefully) misreading what I wrote we MUST just have a communication break down... because I can't believe half of the things in this thread.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The scenario was a door set into the wall such that peering behind the bookcase could miss it, but moving the bookcase could not.

please quote where you said this before


all I see is us talking about a hidden door... not anything close the specifics you just laid out...

 

[Swarmkeeper]

I'm not sure what can help... no matter how many times I tell you I don't take control or agency from players (unless magic mind cotrol) you don't believe me.

When you dictate that the PC must roll to discover a concealed door behind a bookcase - a bookcase they just moved to look behind - because you feel they don't have high enough Perception. That is where you are giving the impression that you are taking away agency.

Turns out you have confused a concealed door with a secret door. So it seems likely to be just a miscommunication and you would not have that character roll. Correct?

 

[Maxperson]

please quote where you said this before


all I see is us talking about a hidden door... not anything close the specifics you just laid out...

It's in the original post #976

Player 1: "I'm going to look behind the bookcase for the concealed door we were told was in this house and leads to the treasure."

And...

"While it's not behind the PC's skill to look behind the bookcase, it's also not beyond his skill to mess up and not move it, but peer behind and due to the bad angle, miss the door."

So from the get go, peering behind needed a roll, but moving the case did not.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

When you dictate that the PC must roll to discover a concealed door behind a bookcase - a bookcase they just moved to look behind - because you feel they don't have high enough Perception. That is where you are giving the impression that you are taking away agency..

bull... no where did anyone say "IT is clear for anyone to see" it was a secret door so I assumed had a DC to find...

Turns out you have confused a concealed door with a secret door. So it seems likely to be just a miscommunication and you would not have that character roll. Correct?

no, if it is clear to everyone to see no that is no roll. I just am not used to things being so easy to find if they are hidden

edit: and if it was that easy to find just have to move 1 object I would most likely have just used everyones passive to see who sees the needed moving of said book case, there would be no need (unless everyone dumped perception) to even roleplay that