I need feedback from experienced DM's

Re: Time to speak up...

thulsa said:
Hi all,

I am the DM of Ormraxes, and he has asked me to read this thread and bring my own comments to the table. It seems like this board is mostly dominated by players, and not DMs (I could be wrong),

You probably are wrong. There are a lot of really experienced DMs here, many of us with 20+ years of gaming behind us. Most of the time I've gamed in the last 20 years, I've DMed.

thulsa said:
- All DM's have their own house rules. In my campaign, I restrict a few (high-level) spells, and give starting characters less money than the DMG says. And that spells dooom for a group of crack roll-players going through RttToEE??? Gimme a break.

So explain the high body count. That module is tough, but not that tough - especially if your players are as experienced as you say they are. Besides, you mention they can have all the mundane equipment they need, but they need plenty of magic to get through that module.

Something is going wrong - on the DM's part, on the players' part, or both. By "going wrong," I mean such a high body count. That would get frustrating pretty quickly for player and DM alike. It bears looking into if everyone wants to keep having fun.
 

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I'm with the Coln here. I've Dm over 20 sessions, ran two campaigns, AND I'm personally involved both as a player AND DM in on going campaigns. Yet I think in my time I've only killed off 5-10 characters in a 3 year span. 22 in just this ONE module?! Sorry but that's just unacceptable both as a player AND DM.
 


Re: Time to speak up...

thulsa said:

It seems like this board is mostly dominated by players, and not DMs (I could be wrong), so I'm probably sticking my head into a hornet's nest here
(Heh. I missed this part the first time, LOL. :o)

Most people here are DMs; players are relatively uncommon. So don't worry - we understand you. :)

Myself, I DM 95%+ of the time.

- Darkness,
Vile EN World Moderator and even viler DM :D
 

Re: Time to speak up...

thulsa said:

I am the DM of Ormraxes, and he has asked me to read this thread and bring my own comments to the table. It seems like this board is mostly dominated by players, and not DMs (I could be wrong), so I'm probably sticking my head into a hornet's nest here, but here we go... ;-)
You couldn`t be more wrong, in this thread are at least 5 GMs i would like to play with, but there are the sea between.

1st or 10th level, always have enough gold to buy whatever mundane equipment they require
Mundane Equipment, but if i`m right (don`t own the module) the level of the party and the lev of the module expect them to have magic equipment, and not a few items, except if you balance the module out.
And btw i´ve played Fantasy RPG, where for an high lev -Character a permanent magical item is an rare exception, with the exception of a few special class items an arcane Character could craft themselves, paying in permanent Spellpoints.
Potions are rareand reloadable Items(also costing permanent SPP) are very rare and diffiucult to make, needing high skill and high spell levels.

And that spells dooom for a group of crack roll-players going through RttToEE???
My players are still, I think, trying to adjust to the open-ended scenario that RttToEE is. They are free to explore anywhere, even though they might encounter things which are far above their (current) power level.
That don`t fit together and it definitely didn`t fit with 22 dead PCs.

I sign the right of every GM to ban any Item, Power, Spell, Class etc that didn`t fit his campaign (world), his style, made unnecessary complications or he didn`t like to have in his game!
but every GM has the duty to balance his Campaigns, Adventurs and challenges to be in his party range.
Not to beat them, but to be survivable.
 

For the record, Thulsa, I defended you on banned spells. If you don't think you can handle them, it's perfectly fair to have them not exist. It's also nice if you can work them in once you CAN handle them.

Heck, for my money, the most unbalancing spell in the game is Haste. But I digress...

I'd like to hear your opinion on the number of PC deaths. Heck, what I'd LOVE is a breakdown:

(x) deaths caused by instakills or helpless defenders. This would include traps with "Save or Die" spells, supernatural abilities that paralyze victims, an Iron Golem's poisonous breath, or anything else that bypasses hit points to take someone out of the fight and leave them helpless.

(y) deaths caused by hit point exhaustion. This would include monsters that deal massive amounts of damage very quickly, like earth elementals, iron golem slam attacks, or dragons.
'
(a) deaths in "fair fights", by monsters whose CR was roughly equal to the average party level

(b) deaths in "easy fights", by monsters or traps that only killed someone by freakish mischance

(c) deaths in "hard fights", by monsters or traps with a CR higher than the average party level

If you have a lot of deaths due to:

XA: These deaths are most often due to players being poorly prepared. Not having protection spells up, not having protective items that raise saves, not having Dispels handy to get rid of paralyzing or polymorphing, etc. This pretty much goes to wealth per level, in my book.

YA: Wealth, and not having enough time to rest between encounters.

XB: These shouldn't be happening except by freakish mischance. If the DM overcompensates for a monster that is "too easy" for the players by making an environment that favors the monster, the CR needs to be adjusted. Many XBs are XAs in disguise -- it's only a basilisk, but the party can't hit it because it's on a ledge, or it drank from "the displacement lake" or something. And the DM doesn't give the experience that these encounters merit.

YB: This should rarely if ever happen, unless the DM is making it hard to rest or restricting curative devices like wands or potions. A 9th level party should not have people killed by minotaurs without class levels. Again, the overcompensation deal -- giving the minotaurs magical axes too large for the party to take as treasure in order to "make it more challenging", when the whole point of that encounter was to be an easy one for the PCs.

XC: You're not warning your party enough. A 9th level party shouldn't go in against a beholder without SOME warning of what they're going to be fighting, unless you're going for a TPK.

YC: These are the encounters that the party can win, but only by using a lot of their items -- the cleric who uses 12 charges on his wand of Cure Serious Wounds by healing the party fighter EVERY ROUND during the fight, or the Rogue who drinks 5 potions of invisibility over the course of the combat. Parties can win these fights, but only if they have enough disposable items.

Dunno if the hit-point/instakill distinction really helps. It made me kind of realize my shortcomings as a DM, though. All my deaths have come from things just doing hit point damage. I don't give out enough disposable items to keep people up and about for long enough during those ugly Melee Slugfests. However, my party has GREAT collective saves, and is rarely in danger from Instakill effects.

I guess you could get even more distinctive, and take it to:

Death due to an Instakill effect or helplessness-inducing effect

Death due to hit point damage from attacks

Death due to hit point damage from energy or area effects

But that probably would cease to be useful.

Also note: I'm deliberately leaving out "Player was Stupid" as a possibility. If these are canny players, they probably weren't stupid from their point of view. It's easy for the DM to be snide and deride the "idiot players" for not realizing that the magical gem on the altar had a trap on it that consisted of being trapped in a wall-of-force cage, fireballed ten times, hit by Evard's Black Tentacles, and then slapped with a Stinking Cloud of infinite duration that doesn't dissipate because of the Walls of Force, while summoned halfling-sized Iron Golems punch the party with spiked fists laced with Poison that does Con damage.

-Tacky
 

Hi thulsa,

good to hear your side of things as well. Much preferable to hearing only one person's view.

Like the overwhelming majority of posters on these boards (and probably in this thread), I am a GM.

Frankly, up to your post, I was wondering whether Omraxes's post was a troll (a deliberately untrue post aimed at tempting people into heated discussions).
I can't see anything unbalancing in the spells Omraxes tells us you are banning. Also, though I have not yet run RToEE, I know the module well and I am preparing to run it. I don't see how a party with only mundane gear is supposed to survive, let alone gain ground in the later parts of that module - unless of course you adapt the opponents' power levels accordingly.
You say that you do. However, as a number of posters have already mentioned, your body count in itself is a strong indication that something is out of balance here.

If your players have trouble coming to grips with the fact that not all opponents they encounter are there to be killed and looted right now, well, then perhaps give them a hint or two rather than letting them run suicidal attacks over and over.

Perhaps if you state your reasons for banning individual spells, I'll be able to understand better. From your initial post, I'm afraid I don't follow.
 

barsoomcore said:
The more pertinent issue is why is he banning these spells?

Well, that would be the real question, now wouldn't it. :D

barsoomcore said:
I don't like it. Sometimes that's reason enough.

For you (the DM) or me (the Player)? I can use that same logic to say that the IRS can take more of your money away simply because they don't like how much money you make. Think about that a little while before you answer. ;)
 

Re: Re: Time to speak up...

sword-dancer said:


And btw i´ve played Fantasy RPG, where for an high lev -Character a permanent magical item is an rare exception, with the exception of a few special class items an arcane Character could craft themselves, paying in permanent Spellpoints.
Potions are rareand reloadable Items(also costing permanent SPP) are very rare and diffiucult to make, needing high skill and high spell levels.
Hmm... DSA? :)
 


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