I need feedback from experienced DM's

[the Jester]

Wow, if the new characters start off without equipment suited to their level, everything will be able to hit them, they won't be able to hit anything, and they'll keep dying.

Wait- that's basically what you said is happening, right?

Hmmm....

Also, if the npcs or clerics can have the spells, they aren't really banned, you're getting screwed. I suggest you talk to your dm about it, it sounds like you guys aren't having that much fun.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Hey there Ormraxes! Thanks! I hope we can help! Colonel Hardisson, my friend, I think I agree entirely with your assessment! I'm suspicious that Orm's Game Master is attempting to keep the entire scope of the campaign low-magic and poor, but then to run the group through an official adventure like ROTTEE--which is default, higher-end magic and wealth assumptions of the DMG--is very rough on such a party! I think he may have chosen the adventure without realizing the deeper implications of such changes would have on the party.

I like to give Game Master's the benefit of the doubt, as I mentioned Orm, you should talk to your Game Master, and explain that you think spell and treasure adjustments need to be made--or the Game Master needs to change the adventures that your group encounters to match your clearly reduced capabilities.

Likewise, the occasional heroic death of a character can be memorable and exciting, but to go through death after death--providing you aren't playing the characters in a very stupid manner--makes me think that your Game Master may be making some problems in the adventure design. The game shouldn't be an endless parade of creative ways that your characters spend dying.

At the end of the day, that can get quite tiring, and isn't very much fun, so your Game Master should consider these things well.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Meds]

Hi Omraxes,

I would echo what many have said already: these are not spells that I would personally consider problematic. The lack of magic items is still more concerning for RttToEE, although for all I know your DM is already adjusting the encounter difficulties to account for this relative weakening of the PCs.

One thought: There appears to be a big disparity in the power of your own character (12th level) over the power of the others (8th-10th level), and your description of a typical combat backs that up. Such a large power difference can be tough to deal with (for both DM and players), particularly in a combat-heavy adventure like RttToEE. Is your DM perhaps trying to weaken your character so that the others can play a more active role? Probably wrong, but it's just a thought. (Even if this is the case, banning spells is not the way to go IMHO.)

 

[S'mon]

I like low-magic: the PCs IMC are 8th-9th level and don't have anything better than +1. But I'm running 'Lost City of Gaxmoor', which is lower-magic than 'standard', and is supposedly intended for lower-level PCs than the group (although the CR 20 guy in the Palace was a bit much for them - they escaped minus 2 cohorts). Plus they make use of NPC meat-shields (Fighters) whenever possible. If I were you guys I'd have my PC refuse to go on in the Temple oEE unless they could get some serious NPC backup; there's a difference between heroism and suicide. If your GM throws a tantrum and tries to railroad you, I'd say quit the campaign, make another one with a different GM. Player power works!
Your problem is not with the spells, it seems to be with the GM's whole attitude and a demoralised bunch of players - going Full Defense every fight is not the sign of a happy group! It doesn't work very well, either.

 

[gorfen]

Sounds like your DM wants to have his cake and eat it too. Basically, either you play a challenging, low magic game OR you have adventures like RttToEE. If you try to do both, you railroad your gamers into a totally unwinnable situation. D&D is supposed to be fun for everyone, not just the DM or the PCs. There are so many spells and counterspells that I can't imagine any spell being totally unmanagable. If he doesn't know what to do with you, he shouldn't be DMing your group anymore. Characters hit their groove around 7th and keep developing up to 15th. He needs to hand the reins over, start fresh or start doing some homework. As others have said, ANY limitations need to be spelled out in advance to keep a game fun.

As far as NPCs having access to spells that you don't and probably won't, that is cheese. That's like telling the fights, "You'll have opponents in better armor than you and you can never have it, even if you kill them". Either the spell is in for everyone or no one.

 

[maddman75]

Just wanted to chime in.

I agree with most of what's been said here. My current group is around 15th level. The only PHB spell I've altered at all has been Harm, and that's a pretty universal house rule. The spells listed are not abusive at all. Since he's running a default module, flavor isn't an issue.

More important that the banned spells are the magic items. He's got to understand this - characters *need* the amount in items given on page 145 in the DMG! Giving them a tenth of that makes them as effective as a character 2-3 levels lower than their actual level. There is no way your group is going to make it through "monte's meatgrinder" (as RttToEE is affectionately called around here) with less than standard equipment. Hell, your odds aren't that good with standard equipment.

I realize its a huge departure from how things were done in 2e. But changing it means you need to change the difficulty of encounters in the module and you need to rework experience.

 

[Mr Fidgit]

I would appreciate if you guys could keep this thread from vanishing until tomorrow, so that I can show it to my group (and DM, of course).

well? how did your DM take it?

 

[Asheron]

well? how did your DM take it?

yeah tell us........plzzz

 

[Ormraxes]

Well, both the DM and the cleric-guy laughed quite a bit while reading the funny parts. And all your posts might have helped as both of the other party members got to start at 10th level (they died at 7th and 10th). Since we didn't have the DMG where we played, it was decided (as the DM was in a particularly good mood) that they could start with 1500 gp each. I don't know if this is more or less than 10% of what a 10th level NPC has, but at least it allowed our paladin (the former cleric) to buy a full plate armor after he had borrowed some money from the other guy (Pal1/Sor9).

But now we may have bigger concerns than the banned wizard spells . We played today, and I wanted to make a Headband of Intellect +2 but was denied, although our DM hasn't yet decided if this will be a permanent ban (or whether it will extend to the other stat-boosters). To make matters worse we recieved a serious beating from several spider eaters and the lightning bolt towers above the fire door in the volcano. And I suspect we will be ambushed by the dragon when we try to rest, as it used this tactic the last time we had a near-TPK and three party members died. Since the paladin has only 13 hps left (and that's including the hps from Endurance) and the paladin/sorcerer has between 40-50 hps (also including Endurance) we will be in big trouble if that happens. However, there is some good news. As soon as our DM has updated our death list (seems we've had 22 deaths), I could post a link to it if anyone is interested.

 

[Rel]

"What just happened here?"

"We got hosed, Timmy. We got hosed."

Yikes, dude.

If 10% of the starting wealth for an NPC of equal level is what your DM was going for, he almost hit it. An NPC starting at 10th level should have 16,000 GP. A 10th level PC should have 49,000 GP.

I've heard a lot of stories about RttToEE and you guys are going to keep dying at the present rate or faster. I hope you find that enjoyable.

Good luck.