I need feedback from experienced DM's

[takyris]

Hm.

Read the Graveyard.

Frankly, I'd be trying to up the DCs of my spells as best I could, too. The wizard in question is the party's only hope, given that you're pitting melee combatants with less magical equipment than usual against big-hitting melee opponents. If you're sending a mid-level party against elementals and weapon-wielding trolls and dire animals, that party needs to have a good AC. If I'm a fighter in your campaign, I'm on my knees begging you to give me normal character wealth for my level, so that I can purchase the best armor and shield I can afford -- and then I'm going to turn on Expertise and fight defensively, because that's the only way to make it even remotely difficult for a Dire Bear, Huge Earth Elemental, or Troll-with-fighter-levels to hit me.

And if I'm a wizard, of course I have a better chance of surviving. I'm in the back, firing off spells and watching the front ranks get pulped by these melee-tank monsters, and when the last fighter gets mashed, I run.

You say:

"They are sometimes too used to thinking along the lines of "well, if it's in the adventure, we're supposed to beat it and take it's treasure". I want to make the adventure and the campaign world a dynamic place where the outcome of things is far from pre-determined."

Then, later, you say:

"he has not suffered a single character death during RttToEE, and that's mainly due to him being extremely cautious and a coward, letting the other party members do the dirty work of actually facing the monsters"

It sounds like you are reaping the rewards of the playing style you've gotten the players to use.

-Tacky

 

[Tzarevitch]

I'm playing a wizard, and my DM has started what I'm afraid will develop into a spell-banning spree. I recently reached level 12 and so far the only 6th-level spells he has banned are Antimagic Field and Project Image. But when I told him about the 7th-level spells I intend to choose at level 13 I was told that several of them would probably be banned. Ethereal Jaunt, Limited Wish, Simulacrum, and Spell Turning were all deemed too much of a problem. And this is just from the PHB. Our DM has always been very reasonable, but all the new stuff in 3rd Edition has put the fear of god in him.

So if you have DM'ed a high level campaign I would like some feedback. Which of these spells, if any, are broken in your opinion? I should probably add that this is a generic campaign, with normal amounts of magic.

In Thulsa's defense, sometimes there are good reasons to ban or alter spells. Sometimes the ban is for setting reasons, sometimes it is because the DM simply doesn't like a particular spell (I personally call these "Crack Spells", meaning that I'd have to be on crack before I'd allow these in my game again). Contrary to the beliefs of some of my players, WotC designers are not all-knowing as to what is a balanced spell. Most spells are fine, some are way off the mark and are easily abused.

When I start my campaign I give the players my list of banned and altered spells:

Delay Poison(altered): Does NOT prevent the initial damage. It simply doesn't work fast enough to halt initial damage. It does delay the secondary effects though. It irks me that a 2nd level spell renders you immune to poison and with an ungodly duration to boot. If you want poison immunity get a Phylactery of Proof vs. Poison made.

Greater Magic Weapon (Altered): Duration reduced to 10 minutes/level.

All Teleportation Spells (Altered): You must have line of sight to your target. You cannot teleport anywhere you can't see (allowing for curvature of the earth). Max range on any teleportation spell is 10 miles/lvl.

Haste (Altered): Haste does not allow you to use more than one spell-like ability or spell in the same round. If you want to cast two spells get the Quicken Spell feat.

All Shadow Magic Spells (Banned): These spells are the most poorly worded and easily abused spells I have ever seen. They were bad in 2e and remain bad in 3e. I permitted them in two campaigns and banned them thereafter until I see a decent fix for them.

Heal/Harm (Altered): Spells are bumped up to 8th level where they belong (IMHO). They are WAY too powerful for 6th level. They are on the level of Otto's Irresistible Dance (i.e. a touch spell that will pretty much auto-disable you.)

Timestop (Banned): Lousy spell. Waaay too powerful, ill-defined and easy to abuse. It is a DM headache.

True Seeing (Altered): Spell bumped to 9th level as is. New spell replaces it at 5th lvl called "Part the Veil". This spell works like true seeing but only works against illusions and other spells of 4th level or lower. Also, the caster must concentrate for a round to "Pierce the Veil" and maintain concentration for the spell to work. Against creatures with an alternate form ability that is not analogous to a spell, the caster must succeed at a caster level check opposed by the target's HD check.

Scrying/Greater Scrying (Altered): Maximum range is 5 miles per level. (10 for greater scrying). If you want to scry further use Extend Spell or move closer.

Ethereal Jaunt, Plane Shift, Astral Spell (Banned): They don't exist in the setting. I don't dislike the spells, they just don't exist in the particular setting. Interdimensional travel is impossible except through a select handful of weak points and there is no Ethereal or Astral Plane.

As I said, I am a firm believer in a DM/s right to ban whatever parts of the game that don't fit his setting or his DMing style, but I would be interested to hear why Tulsa bans those particular spells. I've never found any of those to be a problem and I have players in my game who won't hesitate to twist poorly worded spells until they scream for mercy.

Tzarevitch

 

[Rel]

Re: Re: I need feedback from experienced DM's

In Thulsa's defense, sometimes there are good reasons to ban or alter spells.

I couldn't agree more, but I consider it to be common courtesy to announce which spells will be banned or changed at the outset of a campaign, not well into the campaign.

I think the same policy should extend to other "house rules" such as how much starting cash a character started late in the campaign can have.

 

[Arravis]

Tzarevitch, I think the main issue isn't the spells... but the extreme number of deaths he has in his campaign (which isn't helped by seemingly underpowering the party by not allowing them access to items fitting to their level; a requirement to survive the Temple campaign). Just my 2 cents... (btw Tzarevitch, I do like your spell modifications)

 

[Mr Fidgit]

I think the main issue isn't the spells

i agree. my reaction earlier in the thread was because i thought thulsa was banning the spells just to spite the players

the main issue now is definitely -number of party deaths-. i hope he doesn't think i'm bashing him, but i'd still like to know why the body count is so high

 

[takyris]

thulsa: looking at the graveyard using my own little system, I'm seeing a bunch of YA and YC, and not a whole lot else. There are monsters that are about the party's CR, monsters that are more powerful -- in some cases a ton more powerful -- but not a whole lot that either bypasses hit points or is an easy kill.

What this means:

22 character deaths, almost all by melee damage.

Does the party have enough access to healing potions, wands, scrolls, and spells?

Does the party have the opportunity to rest often enough to recover spells?

Does the party have the chance to withdraw from combats that are going to get PCs killed?

Heck, multiple people died from a water elemental. Were they just stupid? Did they refuse to run away? Did they fight stupidly, not using the ranged attacks and direct damage spells that I'm sure you've made available to them? A water Elemental has a movement rate of 20 feet on land -- and with its CR being so far above the party's level (looking at the levels of people who got killed and looking at the CR7 Huge water elemental), it seems crazy to toss them in against it and not give them a chance to escape with their fallen friends, or sneak past it, or something.

Otherwise, all you're doing is encouraging cowardly behavior. Like what you're accusing Omraxes of.

-Tacky

 

[Kartanikos]

Another member of Orms and Thulsas group

Hi, I'm Kartanikos. In Thulsas campaign I might be viewed as the meat which feeds the grinder. So to speak. So many characters snuffed out in their prime. Spectacular deaths. The piece of coal which resides where my heart once was bleeds... well, coal fragments I suppose. Anyways.

You all think 22 deaths in this campaign is a tad bit much? Well, I don't blame Thulsa. Not much anyway. We've had magic items, we've lost them. We've had money, and yes, we lost that too. Our lives on the other hand were stolen from us by that nefarious Lich wannabe named Ormraxes (or whatever name his Eivil name generator is spewing out these days). One thing is certain. It's not his true name.

My character has died by his hands once (Ice burst) and goaded into a room full of shadows another. Thulsa is right in calling Orm a coward. Last gaming session he was calculating how far away he could be, and still be within spell range. (There was a small matter of triangulation)

On another note. My characters have had a +2 Cloak of Resistance which my next (and next and next and next......) character has always inherited. A dragon has it now. My, how I loved that cloak....

And I blame society.

Leprechauns forever.
At least they have a pot of Gold.

 

[Kyramus]

For the Players:
Talk to your DM and find out just what kind of game he is planning. Low magic, medium magic, etc.
Are there reasons that are tied into the campaign that he is running?

For the DM:
It is understandable you are banning spells, but allow let the players know a reason as to why.

I usually use the "you'll find out eventually" as a good way to make them visit more libraries.

 

[Ormraxes]

Haha, nice to see you too on this board, Kartanikos. Although this post won't have any relevance to the thread subject, I would like to clarify a few things. First, a story about the Ice Burst that killed my bitter friend Kartanikos: This was way back when the only character who had died was an NPC (Xaod the Slayer). Kartanikos played a monk at this time, and when we run afoul of some apes we though it wouldn't be very hard. So Kartanikos charged in, and was quickly surrounded. I asked him (knowing full well he had evasion) if he wanted me to include him in an Ice Burst so that i could damage all the apes. He had plenty of hps and said yes. He made his save, and the apes were severely wounded. They roughed him up a little on their turn, and on my turn I asked him if he wanted me to Ice Burst again. Obviously excited about last round's success, he said something along the lines of "Bring it on", and I started rolling d4's. Of course I rolled my best Ice Burst ever, and was very happy, until I saw in the corner of my eye that he rolled a very low Reflex save. So this other guy who only plays about half the time started laughing, and asked Kartanikos how many hps he had left. Then it dawned on all of us that he was dead (-11, actually), and everyone (except Kartanikos) started laughing. I know it sounds cruel, but the situation was completely unreal.

About the shadows: This all started when our rogue/transmuter scouted in an ominous room. Now this room had kind of a bowl which filled with water when he entered, and I think he had to make a Will save. There was also a statue which fired a volley of Magic Missiles each round. And last but not least a sarcophagus with an imp warning us that the one in the sarcophagus was an important character. To me this reeks of powerful undead, and when they wanted to open it I said we should instead get out of there. We were not at full hps, I had some Magic Missiles and an Ice Burst memorized, and the rogue would be useless against an undead (because he didn't have Evocation spells or a magic weapon). The cleric had also used many of his spells and was only 7th level, I think. So if this had been an 8th-level vampire or similar, we would have lost. The others thought this very cowardly, so they wanted me to go alone into the next crypt and plunder the sarcophagi there. I didn't really want to, so I asked if the cleric would come with me, as I knew he would have a better chance of turning several lesser undead. After some cajoling he agreed, and the rogue (who was waiting outside the room) and I cast Invisibility on ourselves. Then we both entered while the rogue waited outside. The moment I started opening a sarcophagus several spectres and shadows came through the floor. Since I was invisible they all attacked Kartanikos and drained him to level 0 in one round. All I could do was to Dimension Door away with the body while the rogue snuck away. So I quickly looted his equipment for his next character, and he turned into a spectre and flew away.

And the small matter of the triangulation was not me staying 1000 ft. behind the party and casting fireball while they were getting butchered. I intended to Disintegrate the Lightning Bolt towers, and knew that these towers would LB me if I came within range (as they had done several times already). The others were already out of range of the LBs, so I don't really consider this very cowardly. And BTW, I made that +2 Cloak of Resistance (and nearly fell for the temptation to make it with pink polka dots). Last but not least, you forgot to mention all the times I saved your hide (and the others') with Wall of Force and Dimension Door.

As for me being "a Min/Maxer if there ever was one", my wizard isn't a halfling, gnome or dwarf. I didn't take a toad familiar, I don't have Greater Spell Focus, and I placed my highest stats in this order: Int and Dex tied, Cha, Con, and Str and Wis tied. Now I believe a Min/Maxer would place them like this: Int and Con tied, Dex, Wis, and Str and Cha tied. Also, I may have the best AC and hps a few rounds into an encounter, but that helps very little when I have AC 20 (sometimes 27 with Shield) and rougly 50 hps (the last few sessions more as I now have Endurance) during a surprise round and when I lose initiative. A cleric or warrior-type is simply better equipped to survive those first rounds of combat. I would really like to know if the wizard/sorcerer walks first in other people's adventuring parties. Let me know, people, and maybe, just maybe I'll change my cowardly ways a little .

 

[Larry Fitz]

I still don't see what's so unbalancing about Anti-Magic Field....

The problem here, IMO is that when characters are brought in above first level they should have commensurate equipment to other characters of that level. Apparently These players get their own character's equipment back if Ormraxes story about the Cloak of Charisma is any indication. Thulsa are you limiting starting equipment BECAUSE the PC's would just use death as a way to enrich the party?

Thulsa, the Int stat is not unbalancing at even 26 let alone 23. According to your website the only core spell banned is Anti-Magic Field, certainly you can restrict access to other spells for In-game reasons. It does sound like you and Kartanikos resent Ormraxes style of play, and maybe his success so far.

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