I need some advice on romance.

[Yair]

So, you're saying that while, after levels of practice, I will be able to cut down 10 or more opponents in a single blow, fire and draw an arrow a second, run across a greased tightrope, talk to dieties directly, command storms, defeat dragons, hide in the shadow of a blade of grass, or bend the universe to my will, but still not be any better at talking with the girl across the table?

Sucks, doesn't it

Actually, no. I'm saying it isn't a matter of experience, so you can gain it through magical means or special abilities or just amazing charisma.
Just how hard do you want seducing the girl across the table to be? Let's put it at DC 20; a level 1 bard with 18 charisma has a 25% of pulling it off. Now look at him at level 20, he can have some +5 levels+6 enhancement+5 inherent=+40% for his chances, say +50% with a synergy. This makes for a 75% chance of success, and he has a chance to seduce people with DC 30 (even 35 or more if he arranges for circumstance or other bonuses).
If you think this scale of improvement is appropriate, use an ability check. If you want a greater improvement, use a skill.
I personally prefer this kind of improvement for natural, normal, infatuation. I assume the character uses just his charisma, not his super powers. If he wants to use super powers, then I'll just let him invent supped up [Charm] spells and be done with it.

P.S, I'll get back to you on the Love & War treatment, I will....

 

[Aus_Snow]

I think Diplomacy's too general anyway, so a new skill (Seduction, maybe) would be fine.

 

[ThoughtBubble]

Sucks, doesn't it

Actually, no. I'm saying it isn't a matter of experience, so you can gain it through magical means or special abilities or just amazing charisma.

So, you're deciding that it should be an exception to the way that the entire rest of the game works for what reason? I mean, will saves can be boosted by magical means, special abilities, amazing wisdom and expierence. So can spellcasting (even that sorcerous innate stuff). Especially since history does have its share of 'seduction experts'.

Just how hard do you want seducing the girl across the table to be? Let's put it at DC 20; a level 1 bard with 18 charisma has a 25% of pulling it off. Now look at him at level 20, he can have some +5 levels+6 enhancement+5 inherent=+40% for his chances, say +50% with a synergy. This makes for a 75% chance of success, and he has a chance to seduce people with DC 30 (even 35 or more if he arranges for circumstance or other bonuses).

The DC on that depends. WHO IS THE GIRL ACROSS THE TABLE? WHAT AM I TRYING FOR? WHAT DOES SHE THINK OF ME? By seduce, do you mean "convince to go out on another date with" "Remain in favorable terms with by flirtation" "get a better cut of the dinner from the serving girl" "Convince to come into my room for some fun" "Have a lively conversation with" "Allow me to buy a drink" or "Leave a good impression on"? Also, is she an easily swayed farmgirl, a hard bitten ex-adventurer, or a princess? All of this has a HUGE impact on how difficult flirtation should be. Oh, and we are talking about flirtation/romance, not necessarrally seduction.

A single, static DC, much like a single roll of the dice will lead towards single, static play. And we don't want static romances, do we?

And a level 20 bard's people skills should be of the same legendary stuff that a level 20 wizard's spellslinging is at, so a mere 75% on the base case seems pretty low. The 20 bard should make Cassanova look like a drunkard trying at kareoke. Level 20 is hardly a good base case.

If you think this scale of improvement is appropriate, use an ability check. If you want a greater improvement, use a skill.
I personally prefer this kind of improvement for natural, normal, infatuation. I assume the character uses just his charisma, not his super powers. If he wants to use super powers, then I'll just let him invent supped up [Charm] spells and be done with it.

Uh, so when did class skills become super powers now?
And where did charm spells come into the conversation?

 

[Bront]

I believe Bluff covers it actualy (appropriate or not)

 

[Rystil Arden]

Yes, just using the skill system is probably the best thing to do, but if you have to make a new system, at least an ability check with a less-scaling DC is better than trying to use the GiantITP Diplomacy rules.

 

[Cartigan Mrryl]

The first thing I would avoid is making it a single skill check. Tell someone their hair is beautiful? Is it a lie? Bluff. If it's true, Diplomacy. Want to recite a poem or tell a charming story? Perform. I think I once got someon to dance with me because they were too scared to say no. Make it a series of smaller steps. Eye contact, sitting down, saying something casual, a bit of converstation, a coy smile, seeing if they're interested, seeing how interested, catching on to topics they like, and leaving a favorable final impression are all different things that could very easily be a little set of conversation and rolls.

I'd have to agree with person-here (I'm sorry, I missed your name) But maybe you could keep the flirt skill, make it a cha skill, only modify it so that it's more a Synergy skill when used with any skills on the above quote, make it so that for every 2 or 3 ranks he has in flirt he gets an additional +1 on his roll? That's just a suggestion, I'm trying to encourage you to keep making skills, I also like the whole "Flirt" concept. My reasoning for the whole "Keep the Flirt skill" is because even if the "Ugly Sorceror" is ugly, if he knows when (and how) to flatter a lady, looks aren't really that important (as well as he COULD seduce her... but that could mayhap be another skill...)

 

[genshou]

It should definitely be based on a skill. However, I think creating a separate skill for flirting is a mistake. There's no need for overlapping mechanics; if other skills can do the same thing, you don't need to make a new one. Seduction, on the other hand, can certainly use its own skill

 

[Yair]

I won't argue over using an ability or skill check; I presented my suggested rules and their implications, you choose what works for you.

Love & War, a fine book by Atlas Games (I really should review it), offers the following rules to "allow you to abstract romatnic scenes".
It is based on Diplomacy. A seperate series of Diplomacy checks is necessary for a knight to either become the lady's accepted courtly love [champion], or to win her bodily favors. An honorable knight normally attempts the first and then the second. The rules for the two are the same, however.
The beloved is assigned a Reluctance, starting at 10 but heavily modified according to circumstance (+5 beloved already has an accepted knight, +4 beloved and knight worship hostile deities, and so on; there is a large table, and the GM is encouraged to use his judgement).
The knight pursues his beloved by making approaches to her; in person, by sending a gift, and so on. Make a Diplomacy check against the reluctance as DC, if it succeeds, the reluctance is reduced by 1.
You can make up to one approach per week, and must have a plausible grounds to make the apporoach (new gift, deed, poem, whatever). Bonuses can be had for good poems, gifts, or deeds; they stack, up to +30 (very significant and perfectly suitable gift, plus a spectacular deed, plus an eternal, shakespear-quality, verse).
Once the belove'ds reluctance is eroded to zero, she accepts the knight as her courtly love or grants him her favors, depending on which the knight was aiming for.

Just another idea.

 

[Nyaricus]

check out this e-book "The Complete Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge"

its basically a compilation of d20 rules regarding sex and sexuality in D&D, with classes, skills, spells, magical items, pregancy rules, etc etc etc. I had a good laugh with that one. You can find it on Kazaa Lite (where i did).

Also, i remember something about seduction in Song and Silence/Complete Adventurer, if i am not mistaken.

Furthermore Mosaic, i would suggest that you do create a new skill (Seduction/Flirting [Cha]) for your wife. it shows that you care about her, and that since she has agreed to play D&D, you are willing to make it all the more enjoyable for her. Also, with flirting/seduction, sometimes you are serious and you do want the person, and sometimes you are just being whimsy. you could represent that with different skills (bluff or diplomacy) but it simply adds flavour to haev a new skill altogether. Also, make the skill take a longer amount of time (for ex. a diplomact check takes longer than an intimidate check). you have to have a certain level of intimacy with a person to begin flirting with them.

hpe that helped all here. and good louck with your wife Mosaic

 

[Hjorimir]

Actually, this is the kind of thing that I wouldn't touch with any mechanic. I would just role-play any romantic instances and nature take its course. Romance is complex and d20 rolls just can't do it justice.

My best advice is to read some fantasy novels that involve decent romance. David Eddings Belgariad and Elenium series are probably good places to start because his wife, Leigh, helped him write the books.