I need some rocket launchers.

[Evil Eli]

I am not sure what type of game you are planning on running, but unless your characters are all memeber of a government agency that would allow there agents to carry around this kind of artillery I would say "No, you can't have it!"

 

[Dana_Jorgensen]

Dana, what versions of the Stinger and Strela-2 did you write up, and how did you differentiate them in d20 terms? I did some ridiculously detailed writeups in GURPS (right down to crate weights) but am not sure if that kind of detail is supported in d20. No, I haven't purchased Big Bang (and won't if it's too bland in that kind of detail). Thanks.

I hate lack of detail, too. If other books like the Compendium of Contemporary weapons from Palladium, or Ultramodern Firearms D20 has reasonable coverage for each weapon, I wouldn't have written this book. The only thing that comes close to the detail I want is RTG's Edge of the Sword: Compendium of Modern Firearms, and even then, I think it could have been better (especially if the author hadn't insisted on including all the Morrow Project-based charts he wasted so much paper on).

Stinger versions covered are theFIM-92 Stinger Basic, FIM-92A Stinger RMP Block I and FIM-92A Stinger Block II. For the Strela 2s, I covered the original 9K32 Strela 2, the 9K32M Strela 2M as manufactured between 1968 and 1972, and the 9K32M Strela 2M as manufactured from 1972 on. I even documented the four most noticeable of 35 incidents since 1975 in which SA-7s have been used by terrorists to attack civilian aircraft (the attack on the Israeli airliner over Kenya in 2002 was definitely not the first time that happened, contrary to what the media would like folks to think).

I wrote a specific set of rules for the use of guided weapons in regards to the D20 rules. Unlike trying to shoot down an aircraft with a machine gun, for instance, where skill has to be reflected with an attack roll, the use of weapons like stingers instead have a computer doing all the work.

I ended up using the statistical information for those weapons. All MANPADS receive two effectiveness ratings; one for their capacity to actually reach the aircraft their fired on successfully, and the second is a rating of their effective chance to cripple an aircraft (not necessarily destroying an aircraft or knocking it out of the sky, but instead simply causing sufficient damage to force the aircraft to withdraw from the aerial battlefield). Given that those ratings are typically provided as percentage chances, they can be used directly a D100 check; roll under the rating and it does its job. Roll down in the single digits, and then the fun nasty stuff happens (plans break apart, fuel tanks explode, etc).

For the ground attack guided weapons, like anti-tank guided missiles, the guidance systems still mostly rely on operator input during flight to keep the weapon directed at its target, so an attack roll is still required for those, based on the operator's skill.

As for the level of detail, I provide a series of blocks of statistics. there's one block for each of the supported game systems, and then the important one is the real world stats; weapon's designation, manufacturer, nation manufacturing it, years it was manufactured, calibers available, magazine sizes available, accuracy ratings, muzzle velocity & energy, loaded & empty weights, weapon lengths, effective & maximum ranges, and rates of fire in various modes. They also all get at least one page of detailed historical and technical notes, coverage of variants, and illustrations or photographs. Some get a lot more. The M1 Garand, for instance, the writup currently covers 4 of 26 variants, and has 3 pages of text & pics. The OICW/XM29 SABR, last time it was updated, was 7 pages (and includes details on 25mm munitions for the gun other than the HE/Frag rounds which are usually the only thing mentioned in other books).

 

[Tzeentch]

-- Cool. Glad to see someone putting some effort into research with d20 Modern. There's some pretty horrid stuff out there.

Stinger versions covered are theFIM-92 Stinger Basic, FIM-92A Stinger RMP Block I and FIM-92A Stinger Block II.

-- Warning, pedantic mode!
-- IIRC there is no FIM-92, the FIM-92A (1981) is the original version (lacks a UV seeker/discriminator and is "dumber"). The FIM-92B Stinger-POST (1983) adds UV discrimination. The FIM-92C Stinger-RMP (1990) has a more advanced electronics suite, the FIM-92D Stinger RMP Block I (1997) upgrades the microprocessor, the FIM-92D Stinger RMP Block II (2001, "Advanced Stinger") adds additional capability.
-- There's also the ATAS (air-to-air Stinger - use FIM-92B Stinger POST stats until the Block II retrofit makes them RMP capable).
-- The Stinger-RMP Export and Stinger-RMP Block I Export lack the most capable software modules.
-- The Euro Stinger is a license produced version of the Stinger-RMP Export made in Germany, Greece, the Netherlands, and Turkey.
-- Fliegerfaust 2 (FLF 2) is the German designation.

For the Strela 2s, I covered the original 9K32 Strela 2, the 9K32M Strela 2M as manufactured between 1968 and 1972, and the 9K32M Strela 2M as manufactured from 1972 on. I even documented the four most noticeable of 35 incidents since 1975 in which SA-7s have been used by terrorists to attack civilian aircraft (the attack on the Israeli airliner over Kenya in 2002 was definitely not the first time that happened, contrary to what the media would like folks to think).

-- Did you find much on the Sakr Eye reverse-engineered version of the 9K32M used by Egypt? I didn't find a whole lot on the capabilities of the optional Thomson-CSF PS-340 IFF antenna (like cost).

I wrote a specific set of rules for the use of guided weapons in regards to the D20 rules. Unlike trying to shoot down an aircraft with a machine gun, for instance, where skill has to be reflected with an attack roll, the use of weapons like stingers instead have a computer doing all the work.

-- That works for the Stinger and 9K32M, but not necessarily for the 9K32 which lacks an automatic engagement capability (you have to guess everything from superelevation to target lead).

I ended up using the statistical information for those weapons. All MANPADS receive two effectiveness ratings; one for their capacity to actually reach the aircraft their fired on successfully, and the second is a rating of their effective chance to cripple an aircraft (not necessarily destroying an aircraft or knocking it out of the sky, but instead simply causing sufficient damage to force the aircraft to withdraw from the aerial battlefield). Given that those ratings are typically provided as percentage chances, they can be used directly a D100 check; roll under the rating and it does its job. Roll down in the single digits, and then the fun nasty stuff happens (plans break apart, fuel tanks explode, etc).

-- That offends my GURPS sensibilities but considering how shallow vehicle stats are in d20M that's probably the best bet (suitably random too heh).

For the ground attack guided weapons, like anti-tank guided missiles, the guidance systems still mostly rely on operator input during flight to keep the weapon directed at its target, so an attack roll is still required for those, based on the operator's skill.

-- GURPS differentiates between operator involvement with SACLOS and MCLOS. Presumably there is in d20 as well (notably how much time you have to concentrate on it?)

-- I've got quite a bit of data on a number of missiles, been concentrating on Russian stuff but I've tried to track down actual warhead diameters, warhead weights, flight endurance, etc. I have the following written up:

Panzerabwehrrakete X-7, 150¥XXmm, Germany, 1944
Panzerabwehrrakete Ruhrstall X-4, 220¥1,900mm, Germany, 1944
PC 1400 FX “Fritz X”, xx¥xxmm, Germany, 1944
Henschel Hs 293 A-1, 470¥3,819mm, Germany, 1944
Henschel Hs 294, 620¥6,114mm, Germany, 1941
Henschel Hs 295, 620¥5,440mm, Germany, 1945
Blohm & Voss 246 Hagelkorn, 542¥3,525mm, Germany, 1943
Kawasaki ATM-1, 120¥1,020mm, Japan, 1963
Kawasaki ATM-2, 152¥1,565mm, Japan, 1979
Kawasaki ATM-3, 110¥1,350mm, Japan, 1987
Kawasaki ATM-4, 160¥2,050mm, Japan, 1996
Aérospatiale Matra Eryx, 136¥891mm, France, 1993
Missile Tubes
Optional Missile Sights
KBM 3M6 Shmel (AT-1 Snapper), 136¥1,148mm, Russia, 1956
KBM 9M17 Falanga (AT-2 Swatter), 148¥1,165mm, Russia, 1962
KBM 9M14 Malyutka (AT-3 Sagger), 120¥864mm, Russia, 1961
KBP 9M111 Fagot (AT-4 Spigot), 119¥863mm, Russia, 1972
KBP 9M113 Konkurs (AT-5 Spandrel), 135¥955mm, Russia, 1976
Ground Missile Launch Systems
KBM 9M114 Shturm (AT-6 Spiral), 130¥1,625mm, Russia, 1976
KBP 9M115/9M116 Metis (AT-7 Saxhorn), 93¥733mm, Russia, 197
KBP 9M112 Kobra (AT-8 Songster), 125¥966mm, Russia, 1980
KBP 9M120 Ataka (AT-9), 130¥1,825mm, Russia, 1992
KBP 9M117 Bastion (AT-10 Stabber), 100¥1,047mm, Russia, 1986
9M114 Designations
KBP Tula 9M119 Svir (AT-11 Sniper), 125¥676mm, Russia, 1986
9M119 Designations
KBP 9M131 Metis-M (AT-13), 130¥920mm, Russia, 1992
KBP 9M133 Kornet (AT-14), 152¥1,100mm, Russia, 1992
KBP 9M123-2 Khrizantema (AT-15), 150¥2,050mm, Russia, 2002
KBP 9A4172 VIKhR’ (AT-16), 135¥2,775mm, Russia, 1995
Hong Jian-8C (HJ-8C), 120¥1,100mm, China, 1993
Rockwell AGM-114 Hellfire, 178¥1,626mm, United States, 1982
Martin Marietta AGM-114K Hellfire II, 178¥1,803mm, United States, 1995
Lockheed Martin/Northrop Grumman AGM-114L Longbow Hellfire, 178¥1,753mm, United States, 1998
Hughes BGM-71A TOW, 148¥1,163mm, United States, 1970
Hughes BGM-71C I-TOW, 148¥1,425mm, United States, 1981
Hughes BGM-71D TOW 2, 148¥1,526mm, United States, 1983
Hughes BGM-71E TOW 2A, 148¥1,509mm, United States, 1987
Hughes BGM-71F TOW 2B, 148¥1,168mm, United States, 1992
Euromissile DM-74 MILAN, 115¥770mm, European Union, 1974
Raytheon/Lockheed Martin Javelin, 127¥1,081mm, US, 1994
Raytheon Electronic Systems FIM-43C Redeye, 70¥1,200mm, US, 1967
Redeye Firing Sequence
MANPAD Launch Systems
Raytheon Electronic Systems FIM-92D Stinger RMP Block I, 70¥1,470mm, US, 1997
Stinger Mounts
Stinger Firing Sequence
KBM 9M32M Strela-2 (SA-7 Grail MOD 1), 70¥1,438mm, RU, 1972
Strela-2 Firing Sequence
KBM 9M39 Igla (SA-18 Grouse), 72¥1,700mm, RU, 1984

Guided Missiles
Missile Installation Table
Abbreviations used in Article
Missile Statistics Table

-- I think I'll pick up Big Bang and see how it goes

 

[Dana_Jorgensen]

-- Warning, pedantic mode!
-- IIRC there is no FIM-92, the FIM-92A (1981) is the original version (lacks a UV seeker/discriminator and is "dumber"). The FIM-92B Stinger-POST (1983) adds UV discrimination. The FIM-92C Stinger-RMP (1990) has a more advanced electronics suite, the FIM-92D Stinger RMP Block I (1997) upgrades the microprocessor, the FIM-92D Stinger RMP Block II (2001, "Advanced Stinger") adds additional capability.
-- There's also the ATAS (air-to-air Stinger - use FIM-92B Stinger POST stats until the Block II retrofit makes them RMP capable).
-- The Stinger-RMP Export and Stinger-RMP Block I Export lack the most capable software modules.
-- The Euro Stinger is a license produced version of the Stinger-RMP Export made in Germany, Greece, the Netherlands, and Turkey.
-- Fliegerfaust 2 (FLF 2) is the German designation.

Two things I think I should point out. First, I used the Redstone designations, which often do not match the latest pentagon issued designations. Second, coverage was of small arms used in Operation: Iraqi Freedom. This limit made coverage of the ATAS, Avenger, LAV-AD and export/licensed versions improper to add at that time.

-- Did you find much on the Sakr Eye reverse-engineered version of the 9K32M used by Egypt? I didn't find a whole lot on the capabilities of the optional Thomson-CSF PS-340 IFF antenna (like cost).

Not surprising. Advanced air defense systems are difficult to research since they tend to have their information more closely guarded than other types of weapons. The Russian equipment is only so well known due to the Cold War.

-- That works for the Stinger and 9K32M, but not necessarily for the 9K32 which lacks an automatic engagement capability (you have to guess everything from superelevation to target lead).

The 9K32 was added for reference only. And the 9K32 did have a lead sulfide based heat seeking guidance system with absolutely no discriminatory capabilities. If a pilot turned and got the sun into within 20 degrees of the missiles view on the jet's exhaust plume, the 9K32 would retarget on the sun. These remained in service with the Soviets only for a matter of months before the 9K32M replaced them with their Redeye seeker knockoffs.

-- That offends my GURPS sensibilities but considering how shallow vehicle stats are in d20M that's probably the best bet (suitably random too heh).

-- GURPS differentiates between operator involvement with SACLOS and MCLOS. Presumably there is in d20 as well (notably how much time you have to concentrate on it?)

No, D20 has everything based on attack rolls. It doesn't make any differentiations between methods of attack for a longsword, an SMG, or an Javelin ATGM. Perhaps Weapons Locker starts introducing some more detailed mechanics.

 

[Tzeentch]

Two things I think I should point out. First, I used the Redstone designations, which often do not match the latest pentagon issued designations.

-- Not familiar with how Redstone Arsenal updates its designations.

Second, coverage was of small arms used in Operation: Iraqi Freedom. This limit made coverage of the ATAS, Avenger, LAV-AD and export/licensed versions improper to add at that time.

-- I don't think a single Stinger was fired during the entire conflict.

Not surprising. Advanced air defense systems are difficult to research since they tend to have their information more closely guarded than other types of weapons. The Russian equipment is only so well known due to the Cold War.

-- Also the fact that many of the numbers have little to no game utility and translated VERY badly. For example, I cannot think of a SINGLE RPG or boardgame that tries to model kinematic performance of missiles (i.e. how many G's it can pull, slew rate of its sensors, motor burn time/thrust, streamlining, etc.). Most just give a speed a range (like GURPS) which is misleading at best. For SAMs you have other issues with the fact that it's fighting gravity and has to accelerate very rapidly to catch a crossing target.

The 9K32 was added for reference only. And the 9K32 did have a lead sulfide based heat seeking guidance system with absolutely no discriminatory capabilities.

-- Well, it had some discriminatory capability but it really sucked (1.7- to 2.8-µm band). That and it's maneuver vanes sucked, the blast warhead was not directed, the launch electronics were primitive, production quality sucked ... it's amazing any hit at all. But they proved to be fairly effective against hovering helicopters and prop-drive aircraft and that's about it (spelled the end of cheap COIN aircraft, these things are why you don't see Skyraiders around).

If a pilot turned and got the sun into within 20 degrees of the missiles view on the jet's exhaust plume, the 9K32 would retarget on the sun. These remained in service with the Soviets only for a matter of months before the 9K32M replaced them with their Redeye seeker knockoffs.

-- It can also lock onto the ground if terrain is in the background heh. Not that the Redeye was very superior By modern standards they were little better then shooting bottle rockets.
-- There was a four year period between the 9K32 complex and 9K32M. I have no idea how widespread the original or upgraded models were though, it could have only been in service for a little bit with some units.
-- I'm not sure how much a knockoff the 9M32M seeker head is. The FIM-43C seeker is cooled lead sulfide, the 9M32M is lead sulfide but lacks cooling. Ironically the 9M32M does have a greater track rate and spectral range then the FIM-43C. You may be thinking of the R-3 (AA-2 Atoll) which is a DIRECT copy of the AIM-9 except where they had to substitute parts because the local industry couldn't make them exactly the same.

No, D20 has everything based on attack rolls. It doesn't make any differentiations between methods of attack for a longsword, an SMG, or an Javelin ATGM. Perhaps Weapons Locker starts introducing some more detailed mechanics.

-- I'd like to see some optional rules, because treating them all the same is pretty silly.

-- Thanks for the replies

 

[Dana_Jorgensen]

-- There was a four year period between the 9K32 complex and 9K32M. I have no idea how widespread the original or upgraded models were though, it could have only been in service for a little bit with some units.

This is incorrect. Both the 9K32 and the 9K32M saw first issue in 1968. Most books erroneously list the first service date of the 9K32M as 1972, but that was simply an upgrade year that only introduced a new rocket motor that increased the missile's range from 4.2km by 2.3km altitude to 5.5 km by 4.5 km altitude.

 

[Tzeentch]

This is incorrect. Both the 9K32 and the 9K32M saw first issue in 1968. Most books erroneously list the first service date of the 9K32M as 1972, but that was simply an upgrade year that only introduced a new rocket motor that increased the missile's range from 4.2km by 2.3km altitude to 5.5 km by 4.5 km altitude.

-- Hmm, this contradicts Jane's and my other information sources (including the TRADOC threat manual). In fact, I can't find a single source that says the 9K32M entered service in 1968. Can you name your source for this?

Some readily available links:
http://jlad.janes.com/public/jlad/additional_info.shtml
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/sa-7.htm (FAS can sometimes be dubious)
http://www.aeronautics.ru/samru.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/sa-7.htm

Mombasa attack highlights increasing MANPADS threat (Feb 01,2003)Preliminary checks on the serial numbers of the Mombasa launchers indicate that they were produced at the VA Degtyarev Plant in Kovrov, Valdimirskaya Oblast, 175km east-northeast of Moscow in 1974. If that date is accurate, they could easily have been part of an extremely large amount of SA-7s that fell into terrorist hands during 1979 in the former Soviet Union.

The recovered 9P54M launch tubes originally contained the Russian industrial index number 9M32M missile. This missile reflects several upgrades that occurred in 1971. This upgraded missile, although primarily useful for tail-chase engagement of fast moving, high-thermal signature aircraft, is also capable of engaging approaching piston-engine and rotary-wing aircraft that are not exceeding 292 knots (150m/sec) in air speed.

Although the Strela 2M system uses a non-cooled seeker, it has been fitted with a special filter to eliminate spurious background radiation, which was a serious problem with its predecessor. This filter not only prevents infrared (IR) saturation of the seeker, but also increases the missile's resistance to thermal decoys. The Strela 2M also utilises an increased propellant charge that increased both the speed and range of the missile. The maximum speed of the earlier Strela 2 is 430m/second (Mach 1.3), while the 2M travels at 580m/sec. (Mach 1.7). The maximum effective altitude of the Strela 2 was 1,500m, while the 2M/SA-7b has a maximum ceiling of 2,300m (7546ft). Down-range intercept capability was also increased from 3,400m (11,155ft) to 4,200m (13,780ft). The Strela 2M can also be fired at an angle up to 30º on either side of an aircraft's tail with a reasonably good chance of intercept.

 

[Dana_Jorgensen]

-- Hmm, this contradicts Jane's and my other information sources (including the TRADOC threat manual). In fact, I can't find a single source that says the 9K32M entered service in 1968. Can you name your source for this?

Some readily available links:
http://jlad.janes.com/public/jlad/additional_info.shtml
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/sa-7.htm (FAS can sometimes be dubious)
http://www.aeronautics.ru/samru.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/sa-7.htm

Globalsecurity.org is as dubious as fas.org. It is, after all, little more than a reorganized word-for-word copy of FAS.

My source is a number of soviet era military manuals I have. The new warhead seekers entered service in 1968 andthe missile was redesignated as the 9K32M Strela 2M by the Soviets at that time. However, the West only recognized a significant change in the missile's technologies with spies witnessing tests of the new rocket motors in 1971-72. Going on the assumption that the seeker and a number of other technologies were also upgraded at this time, NATO redesignated it as the SA-7B Grail. The actual truth is that the 9K32M had been in service 4 years and had gone through 8 different technical revisions by the time NATO noticed. Obviously, the authors at Jane's have chosen to continue following the official NATO timeline.

 

[Tzeentch]

My source is a number of soviet era military manuals I have.

-- Translated?

 

[Dana_Jorgensen]

-- Translated?

If they're available in english, I'm not aware of it.