D&D 3.x I Play 3.5; Sell me on Pathfinder

[Aus_Snow]

edit --- ninjaed re: CMB/CMD (wot is da grapple and all that stuff, neat-like).

I'm a little bit apprehensive, when it comes to going into detail about the actual full version of PFRPG. . . because, um, I don't have a copy yet. . .

So (*sigh*) I'll leave it to those lucky sods who've got it already.

 

[Remathilis]

Not to pick on Wicht here, but I wouldn't mind some concrete examples of how my game is served better with Pathfinder.

Now, to play Devil's Advocate

1.) You will have a publisher supporting your system of choice

So? I have 8 years worth of support for my 3.5 game, and more stuff than I'll ever use there. Not to mention a pretty through back-catalogue of 3pp stuff like Necromancer and Goodman modules. Aside from modules, I'll probably need nothing again. I certainly don't need another copy of the core rules (3.0, 3.5) unless that's bettering my game.

2.) Using your 3.5 material with PFRPG is still a viable option

How much so? Will combining Reserve Feats [Comp. Mage] and Alternate Class abilities [PHB2 & others] Absolutely BREAK the balance of power Paizo tried to accomplish? What about a modules written under 3.5 (or 3.0), can I assume these new uber-PCs (with all thier kewl new toys) are still going to be challenged, or will they cakewalk through the unmodified monsters (which will necessitate the purchase of Pathfinder Beasitary to up the arms-war on the monster side?)

3.) The sorceror finally stands out as something other than a "wizard for dummies."

How so? More spells? Better combat ability?

4.) The Cleric Domains are evocative

But are they balanced? And what if I want to use domains NOT in Pathfinder (like Charm, Cold, or Moon?) How will they stack against cleric domains in PF, or am I stuck waiting for Pathfinder-compatible versions of these domains?

5.) Barbarian Rage Powers made me want to try playing a barbarian

4e made we want to try playing a monk, but that's a poor reason to buy a ruleset. How is the barbarian fixed? What was broken before on it? (I was under the assumption Barbarian was one of the few "unbroken" classes in 3e)

6.) The book is beautiful

Art/Shmart. I don't need pretty pictures at my gametable, I need functional rules.

7.) Fighters get armor bonuses that other classes don't get

See, this helps me a bit. It lets me know fighters aren't going to get slapped around as much in combat.

8.) You will be supporting a publisher who is supporting your 3e books (and your system of choice)

Again, I played 2e with one of my DMs until 2003. Publisher support is a non-issue to me; do the rules make my game better, easier, and more fullfilling or do they make it longer, more confusing and needlessly complex?

---

Let me give you an example here.

My 1st level D&D party consists of...

A human fighter (bastard sword + shield). What's he gonna get for upgrading?
A human cleric (domains war and courage [CW]) who is a melee cleric. What's her advantages?
A human wizard (specializing in shadow/illusions, but not a specialist) How is he going to benefit.
A Halfling rogue (archer/trapfinder) What's she got to look forward to?
A Homebrewed Feyrace Warlock (Neither are supported in Pathfinder, is he gonna get left behind?)

 

[Obryn]

I actually have a similar question, though it is way more hypothetical than Remithalis's. He's actually going to be playing 3.5, while I may not anytime soon. Mine's more from a DMing perspective; I don't think upping the power of base classes matters from the DM chair, except for potential balance concerns. (Apart from Bo9S, I don't agree that latter-era 3.5 classes were substantially beefier than PHB1 classes.)

Part of the reason I'm very happy with 4e is that, as a DM, my job is siginificantly simplified. Preparing encounters is a breeze, NPCs are streamlined, templates and creature modification is math-light, encounters are easy to eyeball, and I never need to look up a spell-like ability. As a DM, what would Pathfinder offer to make my job easier than it was under WotC 3.5?

-O

 

[Wicht]

Trying to reply in order without quotes:

-With me - I like buying books. Its a weakness I admit - so having apublisher who is cranking out books I want to use is a definite bonus for me.

-I cannot testify to the functionality/compatibility of every feat in every splatbook. My own experiences playtesting the Beta was that conversion from 3.5 to Beta was easy (and the final rules will likely prove even easier to convert). We used Order of the Bow PC class with nothing but a few minor common sense tweaks. I ran the last five books from the Rise of the Runelord without changing any NPCs except to calculate their CMB score. We mixed the Beta with the 3.0 MM and the 3.5 SRD MM with no difficulty. There will undoubtedly be some things not compatible but I think any DM who allows every feat from every source is being foolish anyway.

- Sorcerors get what are called bloodlines. The default assumption is an arcane bloodline (most like 3.5) but each sorceror gets unique powers and bonus spells by drawing on their heritage or background. My sons Sorceror in our newly started Legacy of Fire campaign has the Elemental Bloodline, meaning there is some genie blood in his family. He starts off with a fire beam and will, as he advances, gain other fire based powers, including fire resistance. I never liked Sorcerors much under the old rules but the new rules gives them unique flavor to differentiate them from wizards.

- The Domains are very similar to the old domains but the flavor text is better and the domain powers are more evocative and unique for each domain. Converting or creating new domains would not be that big a deal.

- Barbarians were not broken before but there is over a page of new rage powers that allow barbarians to do different things while the rage. Jumping further, hitting harder, overcoming fatigue, things like that. Each Barbarian has to pick what powers they want when they level and again the result will be a greater variety of Barbarians.

- I'm a bibliophile and a beautiful book is a beautiful thing.

- fighters get a major face lift with minimum effort. They get more feats. Bonuses to their weapon use as they level, and bonuses to their armor use as they level.

- All in all the changes to the classes make for greater variety and more options between individual characters while still retaining the basic structure of 3e. That is to say, a cleric of a death god is going to feel and play different than a cleric of a nature god while still being compatible with older books. A sorceror with a demonic heritage is going to be very different from one with a celestial heritage but the rules are not much changed from what they were before.

 

[Wicht]

Let me give you an example here.

My 1st level D&D party consists of...

A human fighter (bastard sword + shield). What's he gonna get for upgrading?
A human cleric (domains war and courage [CW]) who is a melee cleric. What's her advantages?
A human wizard (specializing in shadow/illusions, but not a specialist) How is he going to benefit.
A Halfling rogue (archer/trapfinder) What's she got to look forward to?
A Homebrewed Feyrace Warlock (Neither are supported in Pathfinder, is he gonna get left behind?)

The fighter, as noted above, will get bonuses to his use of weapons and and armor as he advances. First level is not much different though.

The cleric gets her god's favored weapon without a feat. She will get an ability to create battle rage in others giving them a bonus to damage (courage isn't in the book). She will also get unlimited use of her orisons. One of the nicest changes to clerics is that turning undead is replaced with channeling positive energy and she can choose to either damage all undead in a 30 foot radius or heal all living in the same radius with her ability.

The skill consolidation means the rogue will have greater access to more skills. Also sneak attacks are more effective against more things.

It would be up to you to make sure the fey warlock is compatible but an adjustment to HD and an additional +2 to an abilities would probably do the trick.

All the humans would get +2 to an ability score of their choice, the halfling would get an extra +2 to charisma and everyone gets to pick a favored class and when they gain a level in that class recieve either +1 hp or an extra skill point.

 

[Twowolves]

Let me give you an example here.

My 1st level D&D party consists of...

A human fighter (bastard sword + shield). What's he gonna get for upgrading?
A human cleric (domains war and courage [CW]) who is a melee cleric. What's her advantages?
A human wizard (specializing in shadow/illusions, but not a specialist) How is he going to benefit.
A Halfling rogue (archer/trapfinder) What's she got to look forward to?
A Homebrewed Feyrace Warlock (Neither are supported in Pathfinder, is he gonna get left behind?)

Not to duck most of your questions, I will try to address these specifics. Note that you can use all of these as written with Paizo's future modules, which is (as I stated) their goals.

The human fighter gains: +2 to any stat, +1hp for every level of fighter (favored class now gives +1hp/level), more feats (1 feat/odd level, not just 1/3 levels), a bonus to fear saves, more fighter feat selection, "more" skills (no more points, but consolidation of skill lists means your limited points go farther), probably +1 to AC (heavy and medium armors all got pumped in AC), armor mastery (more AC from wearing armor, scales with level) and I think some weapon mastery (extra hit/damage with a broad range of weapons, like "axes" or "blades").

The human cleric gains: the same human boosts plus: domain spell lists (slightly altered from the 3.5 lists) plus a limited use/day domain power gained at 1st and 8th (I think). War loses the bonus feats (to discourage class dipping) but gains an ability to do more damage and auto-confirm crits while active (again, no book yet, so don't bank on it). Courage I'm not sure about. Some spells have changed (ability, not level) so that'll be different. One thing the cleric LOSES is free heavy weapon proficiency. But all clerics gain proficiency in their deity's preferred weapon.

The human wizard gains: item bonding as an option to a familiar (gives a boost to spell DCs I think, and can be enchanted without needing the feat for it, ranging from weapons to rings or amulets etc, but you need a spellcraft check to cast ANY spell without your item), "univeralist" abilities (bonus spells at certain levels, limited per day "mage hand like" ability to magically draw and attack with a weapon carried at range, per day reductions in metamagic level increases). And they now get d6 hp, so average of +2hp/level (favored class and class HD bump).

Halfling rogue gains: I can't remember anything about the halflings, so forgive me, but the rogue gains hd (d8s, so now effectively +2hp/level), rogue talents every even level (starting at 2nd instead of 10th), greatly expanded list of rogue talents (including some spell-like abilities), sneak attack affects more than it used to (now affects almost everything but constructs, IIRC), one talent allows reflexive perception checks to notice traps (doubling your chance to find them if you then actively search the same area), and finally consolidated skills makes those huge numbers of skill points go even farther (Stealth instead of Hide and Move Silently, Perception instead of Listen and Spot and Search, etc).

The oddball raced warlock can be used as-is. If you homebrewed the race, you can continue to do that in PRPG. Currently there is no Paizo-created Warlock class. However, there is a "4th party" PRPG-compatable book coming out with a "Pathfinderized" Warlock class. Dunno how good it will be, but the support IS there already.

 

[Wicht]

I actually have a similar question, though it is way more hypothetical than Remithalis's. He's actually going to be playing 3.5, while I may not anytime soon. Mine's more from a DMing perspective; I don't think upping the power of base classes matters from the DM chair, except for potential balance concerns. (Apart from Bo9S, I don't agree that latter-era 3.5 classes were substantially beefier than PHB1 classes.)

Part of the reason I'm very happy with 4e is that, as a DM, my job is siginificantly simplified. Preparing encounters is a breeze, NPCs are streamlined, templates and creature modification is math-light, encounters are easy to eyeball, and I never need to look up a spell-like ability. As a DM, what would Pathfinder offer to make my job easier than it was under WotC 3.5?

-O

I've never had a problem DMing 3e so I'm not the one to answer your question. I like the quirks and the equity between PCs and NPCs. If I want to create my own adventure, I also like the fiddly monster creation details and figuring out how all the feats and skills interact in a reasonable way with the things backstory. I am not 4es target DM audience and it is possible PFRPG is not going to replicate the things you like.

 

[DwarvenDog]

Hey Remanthis, I'll try to help, based on what I've seen so far:

A human fighter (bastard sword + shield). What's he gonna get for upgrading?

- he's going to be able to more quickly adjudicate power attack. You don't have to choose your power attack number anymore.
- fighter is more mobile in armor as he gains in levels.
- fighter can do more with a standard attack, making moving around the battlefield a viable option. (cleave is now a standard option. vital strike allows for greater damage with a single strike, etc.)
- fighter-only feats, including some critical feats, grant status-inducing effects.
- fighters are less susceptible to fear-based attacks, meaning less time spent running away.

A human cleric (domains war and courage [CW]) who is a melee cleric. What's her advantages?

- biggest upgrade here will be an area-effect heal ability to nearby allies. Cleric has always been a top-tier melee combatant in 3.x

A human wizard (specializing in shadow/illusions, but not a specialist) How is he going to benefit.

- more available spellcasting per day.
- a bonded object option, allowing that wizard to cast any spell he knows once per day. Solves the one-shot "I didn't memorize that today" excuse.
- d6 hit dice allows for better survivability.
- item creation has no XP cost. Now writing scrolls is a good option.

A Halfling rogue (archer/trapfinder) What's she got to look forward to?

- consolidated skill system affects rogues the most. You don't have to fiddle with synergies, three types of "detection" skills, etc. Your chosen skills offer more bang for the buck.
- rogues can sneak attack many more enemy types. Undead, constructs, plants are now sneak-attackable. The rogue has more to contribute.
- one feat option allows a power-attack similar feat for ranged attacks, there are probably other good archery feats.

A Homebrewed Feyrace Warlock (Neither are supported in Pathfinder, is he gonna get left behind?)

- depends what you wanted to do here. You might be able to re-create him using a fey-blooded sorcerer. But a Warlock might play perfectly fine as-is, it's hard to say. I doubt he'll be "left behind" in terms of the power curve.


I hope this is helpful. I plan on using PFRPG as a solid source of house rules and optimizations. There are a lot of time-savers for me (less opposed rolls, simplified dispel magic, channeling energy prevents looking up the "turn undead" table every !%#*@ time, etc.) But it also introduces some things that are not for me. (critical hit rider effects and many auto-confirms, a clunky "fly" skill, and paladin class abilities that go a bit too far up the power curve. IMHO, of course.)

 

[Obryn]

I've never had a problem DMing 3e so I'm not the one to answer your question. I like the quirks and the equity between PCs and NPCs. If I want to create my own adventure, I also like the fiddly monster creation details and figuring out how all the feats and skills interact in a reasonable way with the things backstory. I am not 4es target DM audience and it is possible PFRPG is not going to replicate the things you like.

Fair enough! I never had problems DMing 3.5, per se; I more got burned out on it, largely after running a rather demon-centric campaign arc. It's the spell-like abilities (or, worse, actual spellcasting NPCs) that really killed me.

I had remembered plans to make this sort of stuff easier on the DM, but I might have misremembered. Oh well! It's not the first game that's not geared toward my play-style, and it won't be the last.

-O

 

[Voadam]

The following is based on beta and what I have heard of final PF rules. I do not have the final ones yet so some things may be beta specific.

1 skill list consolidation.

Your skill points go farther, rangers and rogues are able to do more with their increased skill points and still cover their normal sneaky/perception roles so the skill classes actually can cover lots of skill "areas" competently instead of spending a ton to cover just their niche ones competently.

2 No x4 skill points at first level.

Makes checking the math significantly easier on skill points.

3 cross class skills do not cost 2 skill points.

You can be good at non class skills if you work at them instead of being only half decent at stuff you try and make part of your character (a fighter who is perceptive, or diplomatic for example).

4 class skills get a +3 competence bonus

Simple straightforward mechanic to provide a bonus for class archetypes. Much better than the speed bump math of 3.5 class/cross-class/x4 at first level skill system

5 spellcasters get at will cantrips.

Wizards and sorcerers can use attack cantrips instead of crossbows. I hate the image of crossbow carrying casters. Cure minor is changed to not provide infinite healing.

6 sneak attack works on things like undead and constructs.

Rogues are not so mechanically combat irrelevant against hugely common D&D foes.

7 Turning can do healing.

Gives a use to turning when not fighting undead

8 Fewer dead levels in classes.

More benefits to sticking to classes rather than shooting for only specific levels in classes.

9 Save or die spells changed to save or massive damage.

Less one shotting from spells and warriors can survive failed saves by being tough.

10 Save or nerf get hold person save a round.

One failed save doesn't take you out of an entire fight.

11 polymorph broken down into specific redone spells

Mechanical benefits made much more uniform, less monster supplement cherry picking system mastery dependent.

12 dispel magic changed to dispel one effect only.

Huge in-combat speed bump when you had to do multiple dispel checks and multiple recalculations that was more problematic the higher level you got turned into one check, one effect recalculation.

13 Combat Maneuver Bonus.

Simplification of Grapple mechanics along with disarm, trip, etc. to use single resolution mechanic instead of a different one for each maneuver.

14 size bonus to maneuver reduction.

Improved grab from strong, big creatures is less of an automatic lose for a targeted PC.

15 HD increase for wizards, sorcerers, rogues, bards, and rangers.

Makes these classes slightly less fragile. Rogues and rangers who are designed for melee were always hampered by low hp made more problematic by low ACs. Now they get a little boost at surviving a melee combat role but are still vulnerable with a low AC.