I Think I Am Going About It Wrong

[ExploderWizard]

Old school vs New school? Bah!

Are you and your group having fun?

If so, you aren't doing it wrong.

Exactly this. There are different levels of fun to be had though. Take a look at what is happening in your game. Is there anything you could remove without a negative effect on the fun factor? If so get rid of it.

Is there anything that you are not doing that you think would add to the fun? Try it out for a session or so and note the effects it has on the game. Keep repeating this until you have the perfect game for your group.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Old School vs. New School has NOTHING to do with what rules system you use. It has to do with how YOU choose to use whatever rules system you are using. Specifically, that you should use the rules in whatever way you want. If the rules get in the way, then add, delete or modify them without hesitation, and when ANYONE starts to tell you how to run the game by the rules you should stop them and tell them YOU DON'T CARE, because the rules don't run the game - you do.

 

[howandwhy99]

As much as I love these posters above for saying all these great things about old school games, I feel obliged to give a few opinions on how old games were originally designed and how they can't quite do everything. At least without understanding what needs to be done to them first. You don't have to play them any particular way because of the original authors' design, just keep in mind what they were originally understood as.

And that would be from 70's wargaming knowledge of the U.S. military's role playing exercises from that time. D&D was something different. It wasn't a wargame hobby simulation, so I believe they looked around for the next likeliest answer: role playing exercises. Unsurprisingly, the military picked D&D's kind of simulation too (calling them map exercises (link)). The point here I'm trying to convey is these exercises were "be the best soldier you could be" role playing, not explore your character/ personality role playing. In D&D and other games like it the objective is to be the best fighter, or wizard, or thief, or whatever, not "let's explore this theatrical role or what it means to be this fictional character". (Think social roles not theatre roles) Anyway, get as much XP as possible and you're probably doing pretty well at what the games were designed for.

If you want to do character exploration as you say in your OP, that can still be done, but it requires player or maybe group initiative to do so. The game design isn't built to specifically enable that as most Indie games are.

And if you want to tell a story too, that shouldn't be hard either. You've probably heard of Particapationalism. Adventure module one-shots linked together do pretty well too like Adventure Paths or G1-3. You just want to be up front with the objective each time: "this adventure is about saving the town" or "clearing out this old castle" or "Capture Red Team from high ground with no losses on either side, all prisoners". (That last is just so you see where this is coming from). I say this as the setting /situation / game objective here really is the plot. Don't give them an objective and you'll be (practically) plot-less.

That said, you should absolutely look at other things beyond what I think others called Neo-old School. Stuff like megadungeons and being hard on early PCs and whatever else. Just remember that if you want to design for a different kinds of objectives, they should at least somehow test the Players' abilities to succeed in their class. Otherwise you'll lose much of the rule support. I.E. A combat and magic system, but no farming system, kingdom rulership system, mercantile system, basket weaving system, glass blowing system, etc. At least not in D&D out of the box. Those aren't the roles supported.

 

[Mark]

A combat and magic system, but no farming system, kingdom rulership system, mercantile system, basket weaving system, glass blowing system, etc. At least not in D&D out of the box. Those aren't the roles supported.

Strange but ability rolls covered a great deal more depending on the tone of the campaigns. I recall early campaign in the seventies where all of the party members had businesses or holdings because there was always downtime between adventuring and we had a blast planning what to do with it. Much fun!

 

[Mythmere1]

There is definitely, definitely, definitely a distinction between the "old school" game-setting (e.g., megadungeon, focus on the player's pure skill without much focus on roleplaying, high mortality, etc) and the concept of "free-form" rules like Swords & Wizardry's. The free form nature of rules like those in S&W can be used for any sort of approach to gaming. Those have a lot more to do with how improvisational, fast, and loose people want their gaming, not with whether the setting is necessarily lethal, or sword & sorcery, or anything like that.

The Venn diagram of people involved in "old school orthodoxy" and of people adopting "free-form rules" overlaps to a large degree, but the circles don't completely overlap: there are many folks playing old-school orthodox 3e (non free-form), and many people using S&W for games where there's a lot of roleplaying and very little dungeon-crawling. A third group in S&W, overlapping both the above-mentioned circles, is a big community of Xtreme house-rulers, the ones who like to build complexity into a small ruleset rather than subtract downward from a larger ruleset. Lots of these folks are effectively building customized versions of 1e, that play with much more complexity than unmodified S&W.

So far, the S&W community has turned out to be way more diverse than I expected - we've got complete fan-written rules for samurai gaming, sci-fi gaming, and superhero gaming so far, and the game's only been out for about 8 months.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

"Your character dies" != "No roleplaying" or "No story"

You can have an awesome story with old school style. Just center it more about epic fantasy battles and dungeons, not the personal drama the PCs have. Old school roleplaying and storytelling is different from "new school," I guess, but it's still there. You just have PCs named Hrothgar the Champion or Belatucadros the Archmagus. Instead of Drazzit the So Lonely or Edward the Glittering MY PARENTS ARE DEAD.

 

[HelloChristian]

Hello everyone,

Many thanks for all of the replies. I agree that the retro clones really can be used to provide a rules-light, quality role-play experience. I say this because the existence of rules to govern non-combat interactions don't necessarily enhance play. I've gamed since 1983 and I cannot say that inflated rulebooks have improved my tabletop experience.

I intend to find out for sure, though. I've posted in several forums in the hopes of recruiting players for a campaign. I look forward to seeing how I do in a less-structured environment.

Peace,
Christian

 

[JeffB]

While I'm "old school" having started with the brown books, and I play what is very much old school in 'theme" (whether I run S&W or 4E), I am not a fan of frequent combat or PC death, nor have I ever run a game with PCs having henchmen* or a "mega" dungeon.


*Yes, some hired NPCs, but not the dozen men-at arms or charmed orcs used as fast food for opponents or trap finders.

 

[Spinachcat]

I think I may be doing it wrong.

You are doing it wrong - even after you have read the sacred blogs? And you now admit your folly in public? Prepare for punishment!

I also read lots of OD&D blogs, but I treat them like television evangelists. Some are humorous, some are insightful and all of them are pushing their agendas and arguing for their one true way.

I feel that 0e style games offer a great opportunity to focus on story and character development without having to deal with so many cumbersome rules.

Heretic! Get the torches people! We got another one of those "story and character" people invading our hobby.

BTW, if you do want to decrease the lethality at low levels, I found the easiest method was to count the PC's CON as their base HP and then let them roll their HP as they gained levels. Even though its false confidence, it gives my players more hope their characters will live longer so they put extra effort into their story development.

Can you play Swords and Wizardry with a new school style?

Of course not! Even naming your character is an offense before they reach 3rd level. Obey the sacred blogs!

BTW, "Old School" is not just OD&D/AD&D. It's RuneQuest, Palladium, Traveller and a host of other RPGs that came out in the early days of the hobby. IF there is any distinction between "New" and "Old" schools of thought in gaming, it's the sense that Old School games put rules secondary to the fun of the game...though in reality, you can do that for most any game system whenever it was published.

The free form nature of rules like those in S&W can be used for any sort of approach to gaming. Those have a lot more to do with how improvisational, fast, and loose people want their gaming, not with whether the setting is necessarily lethal, or sword & sorcery, or anything like that.

Absolutely!

and many people using S&W for games where there's a lot of roleplaying and very little dungeon-crawling.

Heresy! Report them to the Game Police: Grognard Division!

So far, the S&W community has turned out to be way more diverse than I expected - we've got complete fan-written rules for samurai gaming, sci-fi gaming, and superhero gaming so far, and the game's only been out for about 8 months.

Major kudos to you Mythmere!

 

[Korgoth]

If I may say so, it's hard to get more Old School than my 1975 rules Empire of the Petal Throne campaign. It is a megadungeon campaign, started from 1st level, with expendable slaves/hirelings, wandering monsters, deathtraps, monsters on level 1 that have 7 hit dice (you need to trick it or run away), XP for gold, etc.

They even had to solve a mathematical puzzle posed by a robot to avoid being disintegrated.

And yet, the last session went like this:
Left safe NPC-controlled temple in the megadungeon.
Met group of wandering monsters; successful parley avoided combat.
About two hours of pure role play / political intrigue in the city above the dungeon.

What you do in a session of Old School play is not monolithic "hack and slay". Old School versus New School comes down to this:
Non-combat action handled by description and role playing: Old School
Non-combat action handled by a roll versus relevant skill: New School