D&D 5E I think I miss flat-footed, talk me out of it?

[JamesonCourage]

In my RPG, I have two conditions: flat-footed, and unaware. When you have no idea that combat is close to starting, you're unaware. When you're surprised, but you knew combat might be coming up (you're checking out a noise you heard, you're in a verbal shouting match with someone, someone grabs a hidden knife in combat, you get feinted in combat, etc.), you can be flat-footed.

Flat-footed gives you a -5 on defenses: ACs, Reflex saves, combat maneuver defense, etc. Unaware means that your AC is super low (5 + armor), you don't get Reflex saves, etc.

It's worked well as a divide, for me. If you surprise someone, they might be unaware, or they might be flat-footed, and their defenses take the appropriate penalties. Of course, this isn't a good way to make fights "fair", but surprise is a very big advantage, so I played it up in my RPG. It's worked for us, and I'm glad I eventually separated the two. I'm sure it can be adapted to 5e mechanics easily enough. As always, play what you like

 

[GX.Sigma]

Introducing a flat-footed AC for every creature in the game would be needless complexity. What makes the advantage mechanic work is that you don't need to remember anything. There are no variable bonuses, there's nothing you need to remember or look up, it's just advantage.

 

[Sage Genesis]

Introducing a flat-footed AC for every creature in the game would be needless complexity. What makes the advantage mechanic work is that you don't need to remember anything. There are no variable bonuses, there's nothing you need to remember or look up, it's just advantage.

When a guy says he feels his game needs something... it's really not up to you or me to say it's "needless", now is it?

And the problem with the advantage mechanic is that it might be easy, but it also lacks granularity. There is no difference between surprising the AC 15 heavy armor guard and surprising the AC 15 no-armor-all-dex guard. That's an objective fact under the rules in their current form, but whether or not this is a problem is up to individual taste, and Chris has clearly stated that it isn't to his tastes. So it's not needless if he wants to change it.

 

[Starfox]

I always hated the 3E rule that you could lose your Dexterity bonus to AC when surprised. I can accept a flat bonus when attacking a surprised character, but Dexterity should help against surprise, it should not be nullified by surprise! I feel this is one of the cases where 3E's "simulationism" conflicts with the source material it is attempting to emulate. Who is worst off when surprised, the little quick guy or the big clumsy guy? In a story, the clumsy one, in 3E, the quick one.

Yes, I know uncanny dodge overcomes much of this for barbarians and rouges, but that's not enough for me. Reactions is not a class ability, it is an attribute (Dexterity). And why does not all traditionally quick classes get uncanny dodge - monks, rangers, even bards?

 

[Falling Icicle]

I much prefer just giving the attacker a +2 bonus, advantage, etc. rather than having something like flat-footed in the game.

 

[GX.Sigma]

When a guy says he feels his game needs something... it's really not up to you or me to say it's "needless", now is it?

And the problem with the advantage mechanic is that it might be easy, but it also lacks granularity. There is no difference between surprising the AC 15 heavy armor guard and surprising the AC 15 no-armor-all-dex guard. That's an objective fact under the rules in their current form, but whether or not this is a problem is up to individual taste, and Chris has clearly stated that it isn't to his tastes. So it's not needless if he wants to change it.

He did ask us to talk him out of it...

 

[Sage Genesis]

He did ask us to talk him out of it...

Fair enough but my point is that the "needless" argument isn't very strong. Just because Chris asked for counter-arguments doesn't mean all arguments brought forth carry a lot of weight.

 

[Sunseeker]

The problem with flat-footed was that it was basically a way to nuke your tank in a surprise round, because generally the high armor, low-dex types like defensive warriors suffered the most from being surprised. Using disadvantage or advantage works just fine for it in my book.

 

[Stalker0]

I think advantage on the first attack gives a better bonus than flat footed ever did. Also, from a realism standpoint, why did the guy standing still have a better ac than the guy with a -2 dex? What...he also just trips into your sword?

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I think I am swayed by the arguments to keep it simple, and yes, I can see why a high dex guard could still at least react to the incoming attack, which is very likely to hit anyway.

How do people feel about including disadvantage to dexterity saves as part of being blind or surprised? It counters nicely with the dodge action, note, which gives you advantage on them.