D&D 5E I think the era of 4th edition Dungeons and Dragons had it right. (not talking about the rules).

[Sacrosanct]

Complaining that they aren't doing additional setting material is false because their approach with the campaigns is to include the campaign setting book and adventure book into the same book. The underdark, Ravenloft, even SKT is more than just material for the adventure itself, but includes a lot of general setting material in it. So that material exists.

Complaining about how they should just be able to churn out more material because they are WotC and smaller companies can just shows that you don't understand how business works. Every book requires a significant amount of money and more importantly time (which is also money) if you want it to be a halfway decent product. It makes zero sense for WoTC to put in that investment for something that won't hit their sales floor cap. It's also horrible business practice. They'd have to increase their staffing size exponentially to put out the same quality products if they released several more setting/splat books each year, and then have to lay them all off once those books were complete because what are they supposed to be working on when all the "big" name books are done? And we all know how this community reacts whenever WoTC lays someone off... As someone who works in project management, I would not want to work at a place that said, "We're going to ramp up all our employees and get all of our material out the door in the first two years" because that to me means "none of you will have a job in 2 years because we will have run out of profitable projects."

It also shows that you must not have been around, or remember the 90s. Putting out a bunch of niche material will ruin your company. I'm not just talking out of my butt here either. My degree is in business management, and I have experience not only with small Indie products, but large print runs as well, so I have an idea of how the process works and the costs that go into it. We know what material is popular in D&D and will get decent sales numbers. I'm sorry, but demanding niche material just because you like it seems a bit entitled to me. Especially when you can get that material from third party support. It would be pretty selfish of me to complain that WoTC isn't putting out a Wild West conversion book like I might want for 5e when they've given all of us the tools to create that ourselves via licensing.

Speaking of, I can't help but notice how the first excuse used to refuse to consider DM's Guild is "it's not official and can't be used in AL play", when most of the people using that excuse don't even play in AL. And even if your DM doesn't allow it in his or her games, D&D has ALWAYS been about imagination and creation. Come up with your own material and work with your DM if you want a class/race/new spell/whatever. D&D is about collaboration and imagination. And if your DM is so unreasonable that they refuse to work with you, then DM the game yourself and do whatever you want. There is ALWAYS an option. The "I can't" responses always bother me because often it's not "I can't", it's "I don't want to". There's a difference.

 

[PMárk]

@PMárk I'm reasonably sure that the reason they don't license their settings out is because they want to hold onto them for future publication in house. At some point, that's bound to happen....not every setting, but there are a clear handful that seem very likely.

When the time is right, we'll see Dark Sun or Ebberon material, or another setting. And until then, it would be foolish to let anyone else produce material for the setting. They'll decide which one they want to do, then release a book related to that world, and then probably open up for 3rd party on the DMsGuild.

Might be that, but if we will get something like CoS, then nothing, but unofficial DMsG material... that's still not real support in my eyes.
I agree they probably want to do, for example a Planescape adventure at some point in the not so distant future. I just hope they won't butchering up that setting as much as Ravenloft. Starting with revealing the True Identity of the Lady of Pain... and then leaving out every location outside Sigil. Then leaving out the factions. Then changing the nature of the place.

Honestly, I'd be more happy with a 3rd party license from a publisher I know having some love and respect toward the setting and want to publish material for that setting.

Yep. As I understand it, most people do best with 7 (plus or minus 2) options. Ideally, you can then have the ability to customise within those 7 broader options, but ideally for advanced users who know to ask for them.

If you consider every 5e book in that equation, you already over that number and it will got only worse. If you consider settings, you have only 1. Why people could choose between big adventure books but not setting guides?

That said, I think what we might want ideally is actually a "new games" shelf in the FLGS, containing only the starter sets/books for 7ish different games, and then further back the "advanced user" shelves with all the books for those 7ish games. That way, the new person coming into the shop gets to skip the "wall of books" problem, while the rest of us still get the full range of choice.

But that's a fantasy, of course - given how pressed game stores are, and given how pressed RPGs are within those stores, it's really not practical.

Yeah, that'd be ideal, and I think it's doable in DMsG. Also, i don't say that analysis paralysis isn't a thing, but I think the bigger problem is how we, as the rpg community communicate this whole subject toward new gamers. I was a new gamer at some point. That VtM had the green marble wall never intimidated me, because I bought the corebook, then books that caught my interest. It was never a hindrance to having a lot of material, it was a joy that if i want to read about something, there was a book for that probably. Same with D&D, especially with FR. That a novel series have 10+ books, or a tv show multiple seasons doesn't hold me back for reading/watching it if I'm interested in it. I HATE 12 episode-only one season animes. So i understand the whole I can't handle more than 5 options problem. I just think it is a result of our current age and culture and sorry, I can't sympathize with it, because I see how it results in more and more generalization and losing of great and interesting things.

I think all we need as a community and the publishers also is communicating clearly which ones are the beginner products and how one could built on them and kill the notion that "you should/have to read these wall of books to play appropriately" once and for all.

That's pretty silly. Ask the authors and most of them will tell you they DO NOT troll through tons of AL adventures or much of anything else before they write their books. Yet their stuff gets an 'official' stamp. The adventure 'The Minds of Madness' is official, it's from WotC, and it isn't AL legal.

I assume they got "setting bibles" and their work got at least a glancing revision before published as official material.

And then there are things like this adventure http://www.dmsguild.com/product/1935...nder-Adventure

Not written by WotC, not put up on DM's Guild by WotC. And as far as I know not looked at by any WotC employee except when it was played at Extra Life. It absolutely isn't AL legal either. Is that official?

I didn't say AL legal=official. I said AL modules are official, because WotC acknowledged them as such. Official is official, if got acknowledged as official by WotC. If they acknowledged that adventure, then it is indeed official.

DMSGuild by design blurs the line, and you'll have to make clear what your line is for what is 'official' and it may not be a line shared by everyone.

You brought up adventures as examples, which are indeed the most blurry category, because of the one-time events and such. The situation, IMO is a lot more clear when considering setting material and crunch.

 

[delericho]

If you consider every 5e book in that equation, you already over that number and it will got only worse. If you consider settings, you have only 1. Why people could choose between big adventure books but not setting guides?

It's just a guess, but I'm inclined to think we'll start seeing the older storylines starting to drop out of print. So where there are currently five (ToD, PotA, OotA, CoS, and SKT), next year once they've done two more there may still be five (OotA, CoS, SKT, and the two new ones).

What they do with setting guides and/or rules supplements is a slightly different question, and I can't see a good answer to it. Perhaps that's why they've been so slow to release those - easier to make storylines seasonal, while rules supplements are a bit more evergreen by nature?

 

[PMárk]

Complaining that they aren't doing additional setting material is false because their approach with the campaigns is to include the campaign setting book and adventure book into the same book. The underdark, Ravenloft, even SKT is more than just material for the adventure itself, but includes a lot of general setting material in it. So that material exists.

I wrote it on the SKT thread. For a setting book, neither is enough. The adventure + a 64 page supplement about the connected locations and NPCs that didn't get a significant role, thus word count in the adventure would be much better. IMO Paizo's model is just better. Also, Putting the setting material about roughly the same location in several different 250+ pages adventure instead of one place is just inferior. Also, locations and events in OotA are tied to the adventure itself, it's far from a general Underdark setting book. OotA + a complementary Underdark expansion would be okay.

How much CoS is RL setting material: for me it's strictly not. It's a Barovia material, at best.

Complaining about how they should just be able to churn out more material because they are WotC and smaller companies can just shows that you don't understand how business works. Every book requires a significant amount of money and more importantly time (which is also money) if you want it to be a halfway decent product. It makes zero sense for WoTC to put in that investment for something that won't hit their sales floor cap. It's also horrible business practice. They'd have to increase their staffing size exponentially to put out the same quality products if they released several more setting/splat books each year, and then have to lay them all off once those books were complete because what are they supposed to be working on when all the "big" name books are done? And we all know how this community reacts whenever WoTC lays someone off... As someone who works in project management, I would not want to work at a place that said, "We're going to ramp up all our employees and get all of our material out the door in the first two years" because that to me means "none of you will have a job in 2 years because we will have run out of profitable projects."

Indeed, I'm not a business expert. I'm a reader and fan who see that lot smaller companies can do setting books, novels even and much more, while WotC could not. Honestly, you just strenghtened my notion that RPGs in general are better off in the hands of an independent and/or smaller company.

Also, you have a myriad ways to fund and publish material. Print on demand, PDF, freelancing, licensing, kickstarting. You won't convince me that it is impossible to do it, when even Onyx Path, which is a lot smaller companies than White Wolf was could run a lot of full game lines and produce books. Yes they do t via kickstarting, freelancing and PoD, but i never said that I necessarily want big, full deluxe CGs on the shelves as the 3e FR CG was (although somehow different, much smaller companies could even do that - or at least you could order from them those beautiful books). I just want something. Also, am i really need to saying again and again that I didn't said I want the treadmill of old days? I honestly think you're just trolling at this point and this conversation is going nowhere.

Oh, and I think 5e books quality and "premium product"-ness is just a waaaay overrated. Yes they have thick, shiny covers (and the ratio between covers and content is even comical in the case of SCAG) and paper. I'm not that enamored about the artworks in them, most of the APs and SCAG have largely boring arts, although SKT is quite good. I have tons of better-looking rpg books than 5e, although it is highly personal opinion which one is better. Also I'd rather have "lower quality" paper and less thick covers, even b&w artworks (which I quite like) but more material. Or more niche material in PoD via the DMsG. Honestly there are tons of options out there but you and some other people here acts as the current WotC business model would be the one and only True Way.

It also shows that you must not have been around, or remember the 90s. Putting out a bunch of niche material will ruin your company. I'm not just talking out of my butt here either. My degree is in business management, and I have experience not only with small Indie products, but large print runs as well, so I have an idea of how the process works and the costs that go into it. We know what material is popular in D&D and will get decent sales numbers. I'm sorry, but demanding niche material just because you like it seems a bit entitled to me. Especially when you can get that material from third party support. It would be pretty selfish of me to complain that WoTC isn't putting out a Wild West conversion book like I might want for 5e when they've given all of us the tools to create that ourselves via licensing.

So I'll never get "niche" material, only cheesburger from WotC. Fine. Then I'll stop going to that restaurant. I'm not a charity organization, I'm not obliged to support WotC. If WotC won't put out material I'm interested in, I'll stop buying their products and stop promoting it among my friends and acquaintances. You could rationalize it as you want, the end result from my viewpoint is still a more bland, more uninteresting product line and I don't want D&D to be that, because i like the game, loved the settings and the novels, but if it's inevitable, then good riddance to them!

Speaking of, I can't help but notice how the first excuse used to refuse to consider DM's Guild is "it's not official and can't be used in AL play", when most of the people using that excuse don't even play in AL. And even if your DM doesn't allow it in his or her games, D&D has ALWAYS been about imagination and creation. Come up with your own material and work with your DM if you want a class/race/new spell/whatever. D&D is about collaboration and imagination. And if your DM is so unreasonable that they refuse to work with you, then DM the game yourself and do whatever you want. There is ALWAYS an option. The "I can't" responses always bother me because often it's not "I can't", it's "I don't want to". There's a difference.

Yeah, "do your own" is the perfect answer, because WotC isn't the publisher of D&D, with paid game designers and writers, but I am. Oh, wait... Sorry, I don't have the time and energy to do everything myself, that's why I'd paid for that material.

Should i wrote my own novels to read also, because WotC deemed the line "not profitable enough"?

And officialness isn't just about AL, but coherence, setting canon, less suspicion from GMs, etc. But I alread wrote THAt also.

I'm not better off with 5 unofficial setting conversion than with 1 official, for a lot of reasons.

Honestly, I'm just being more and more happy that we have companies like Paizo, Chaosium, Kobold Press, Onyx Path and also individual publishers who are still willing to support their games and settings with material outside a new big adventure book every half-a-year. My opinion, that WotC doesn't want to manage an rpg and novel line, they want to manage a brand is just gets more and more consolidated. The problem is: I want good rpg material and novels, not a brand. I won't buy a "brand" I'd buy specific products.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Might be that, but if we will get something like CoS, then nothing, but unofficial DMsG material... that's still not real support in my eyes.
I agree they probably want to do, for example a Planescape adventure at some point in the not so distant future. I just hope they won't butchering up that setting as much as Ravenloft. Starting with revealing the True Identity of the Lady of Pain... and then leaving out every location outside Sigil. Then leaving out the factions. Then changing the nature of the place.

Honestly, I'd be more happy with a 3rd party license from a publisher I know having some love and respect toward the setting and want to publish material for that setting.

I don't know. I can understand wanting some material for a setting that updates things to 5E. But how much support do you need? I mean, you sound like you're familiar with the settings...so do you need that much support? My 5E campaign is based out of Sigil and has included plenty of trips to other worlds, Toril and Oerth mainly, but I've also incorporated Curse of Strahd, and there's a trip to Athas coming up.

My point being that the material you want largely already exists. There is a plethora of material available for each setting, across each of the editions. For the mechanical crunch of things, the DMG gives you the tools to create races, monsters, and so on. It's largely a design guide.

 

[Corpsetaker]

So instead of a slow release schedule why can't some of you just have a slow purchasing schedule?

 

[happyhermit]

So instead of a slow release schedule why can't some of you just have a slow purchasing schedule?

People have explained the difference over and over again. The question is not whether some of "us" can't just have a slow purchasing schedule, of course many could do just that. That has almost no bearing on whether or not it is the right marketing and brand management strategy for 5e.

The important thing is that a faster release schedule causes problems that are not resolved by some people just purchasing a smaller portion of the overall releases. It is almost like you keep arguing that general human psychological tendencies should be ignored because they don't match your personal preferences or don't make sense to you. Things like psychology of choice, investment barriers to entry, brand dilution, economies of scale, "event" based buzz, all exist and should be taken into account.

There are other ways to avoid specific problems like content/decision overload. For example Netflix was given as an example before and it is a terrible one because for starters;

There is 0 cost involved in choosing a particular item to watch, it is a passive activity as opposed to tools that require interaction.

Content is algorithmically sorted for subscribers to help them make choices based on their preferences (there is a good reason nobody chooses shows on Netflix from an alphabetized list of all content)


So, these factors exist and are not solved by "some people buying less stuff", there are other ways to mitigate them that can work but they come with a whole other set of drawbacks.

 

[Corwin]

So instead of a slow release schedule why can't some of you just have a slow purchasing schedule?

So instead of complaining about how a company chooses to do business, based on their extensive marketing data, why don't you start up your own company that has a blistering release schedule?

 

[hawkeyefan]

So instead of a slow release schedule why can't some of you just have a slow purchasing schedule?

Others have already given solid answers, but for me, I'd prefer a slow release schedule because I'd prefer this edition of D&D to last as long as possible. I would indeed be very particular about what releases I would buy if they released a lot more stuff. And ultimately, I expect that 5E will be the last edition I play...so I want it to last.

I like that the game is gaining new players. To me, I think a big part of that is the basic rules being free, and for a player to play the game they can utilize about 95% of the player related material by buying one book. I think that's a smart approach and better for the hobby over time.

I don't want them to produce tons of material just to satisfy the folks who feel that more must equal better. For those who want that, there's the DMsGuild with a ton of content. Yes yes that's "unofficial" and may lack playtesting...but it's there. If you really want more feats you can get them. If you feel that the DMsGuild has absolutely nothing to offer...then I'm not sure how you justify the request for more content...

 

[Corpsetaker]

Others have already given solid answers.

I'm afraid there has been no solid answers. The answers that have been given aren't logical. For all those many people who purchase their books online have no excuse for a slow release schedule being good for them because the "wall of books" syndrome won't come into play.

I also don't acknowledge about going into a bookstore and suddenly being paralyzed by the amount of books being present. I'm sure we've all gone int a library and checked out a book which would require you to face walls and walls of books that you need to track down into order to find, if there is a specific book you want, or just simply browse if you aren't sure what you want. I'm sure there was no paralysis involved. If you are new to D&D you will simply research it online and find what you need to get started. This nonsense sounds like an excuse for someone who is addicted to buying books and need some sort of block in place to keep you from buying them.

Do you go shopping at a supermarket? If you do then now do you choose what you want?