D&D 5E I think we can safely say that 5E is a success, but will it lead to a new Golden Era?

And nowhere did I say or even imply that it did.

My point was that 5E is almost certainly drawing its sales from audiences beyond the Pathfinder fans.

Of course it is. But that flies in the face of the narrative that 5E is engaged in an evenly-matched death struggle with Pathfinder.

For almost two years, here, and on other forums, we've been continually reassured that 5E will be a "bust" because it's going to further divide a dwindling tabletop RPG market. The notion was that even if it could "recapture" half of the fans it lost to Pathfinder, it would lose just as many or more fans of 4E, and the net result would be diminished sales.


Yet, here we are, with the 5E PHB a week into its official release and, by all indications, it's a smash sales success, placing not only in Amazon's top ten in new releases, but the number one spot among all books (at least temporarily.)

It's safe to say there a lot of gamers who hope 5E fails. Or that it at least proves less popular than Pathfinder or 4E. They'll interpret any sales data in the worst possible light, and continue doing so.

No Pathfinder product has ever achieved that. No D&D product has ever achieved that. And what this suggests is that the audience buying these books isn't restricted to current players of 4E or Pathfinder.

What it suggests is that the lapsed gamer market is much larger than anyone realized and that WotC has successfully tapped into a significant portion of it.

I'm pretty sure WotC realized how big the lapsed gamer market is. Everything about the design and marketing of 5E speaks to that. The people who didn't realize how big it was are the folks who hang out on forums and are deeply invested in a particular edition of the game. They make the mistake of conflating the thousands of people who are active on RPG forums with the hundreds of thousands - even millions - who play or have an interest in D&D.
 

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The fact is that it has debuted as Number One, something no tabletop RPG has ever accomplished before.
Which is like saying "Of the two major RPGs released during the amazon era, one debuted at #1". We have no context on if 3e would have also been #1 or even lesser games like Vampire the Masquerade or GURPS.
 

Which is like saying "Of the two major RPGs released during the amazon era, one debuted at #1". We have no context on if 3e would have also been #1 or even lesser games like Vampire the Masquerade or GURPS.


Pathfinder didn't do it.
4E didn't do it.

And we know that the initial sales of 4E exceeded those of 3.5, so 3.5 wouldn't have done it either.
 

Which is like saying "Of the two major RPGs released during the amazon era, one debuted at #1". We have no context on if 3e would have also been #1 or even lesser games like Vampire the Masquerade or GURPS.

One could also point out that this is the first major RPG that gave preferential treatment to FLGS with an early release window.

My random anecdote: I can tell you that on my plane ride back from GenCon both the row behind me and and in front of me had a new 5e PHB out. Jets from Indy on the final Sunday of GenCon being a special case, but even so it seems to be selling very well.
 

Pathfinder didn't do it.
Pathfinder took a long time to get sales. It's been a slow burn.

4E didn't do it.
Right. So of 5e and 4e, only released at #1. Now, given we don't know what 3e and 2e would have released at, we have no way of knowing if 5e is doing well, or if 4e just didn't chart as well as other editions.
Which is my point. We're lacking enough of a frame of reference for comparison.

And we know that the initial sales of 4E exceeded those of 3.5, so 3.5 wouldn't have done it either.
I keep hearing that but no one is ever able to provide an accurate citation.
I've seen the quote attributed to Bill Slavisek and Mike Mearls, and I've heard it said about 3.0 and 3.5, and I've seen it refer to PHB at launch and PHB sales in general. It could just be a misquote that has gained legs.
 

Pathfinder didn't do it.
4E didn't do it.

And we know that the initial sales of 4E exceeded those of 3.5, so 3.5 wouldn't have done it either.

And this means what again?

Pathfinder is still going strong while 4th edition is where at again?

It's the long term that is the real test I'm afraid. Initial sales of something are actually a given, if not then the product would have done way worse than expected.
 

I'm pretty sure WotC realized how big the lapsed gamer market is. Everything about the design and marketing of 5E speaks to that.
There's no question it's huge: the vast majority of people who ever played D&D never played it again.

But just because the market of 40-somethings who found a basic set under the X-mass tree in 1983 is theoretically huge doesn't mean 5e is going to successfully tap it. The OSR movement has been trying to do so for years. Essentials tried it with a Basic Set that re-cycled that same 'Red Box' cover (the single biggest-selling D&D product ever). 3e's "back to the dungeon" slogan was aimed at old-school players. 2e was barely changed from 1e in the hopes people might like it again.

D&D has been chasing lapsed players ever since the fad ended. You do see some come back every once in a while. Some with 3e, some with 4e, some with Essentials, some with OSR games, some with Pathfinder....

...but a bunch of pre-orders for a deeply-discounted book on Amazon spiking an hourly ranking doesn't indicate 5e's finally brought back the fad from the 80s.


And nowhere did I say or even imply that it did.

My point was that 5E is almost certainly drawing its sales from audiences beyond the Pathfinder fans.
Of course it is. D&D fans, for instance, are almost certainly snapping it up. Afterall, it's been years since any D&D product came out, at all. That's some serious pent-up demand from gamers used to book-a-month publishing.

For almost two years, here, and on other forums, we've been continually reassured that 5E will be a "bust" because it's going to further divide a dwindling tabletop RPG market. The notion was that even if it could "recapture" half of the fans it lost to Pathfinder, it would lose just as many or more fans of 4E, and the net result would be diminished sales.
Unlikely. WotC could count on 4e fans as a virtual captive audience. For one thing, 4e fans necessarily include in their ranks all those loyal fans and early adopters who will always uncritically accept the next edition as the best ever. For another, they have nowhere else to go. 4e can't be cloned legally, and the GSL is so unattractive to 3pps that ongoing support is pretty anemic.

You may have heard (and still hear) 4e fans grousing about that, but that's because it means 5e won't have much cool stuff from 4e, which is an issue for them /because they're likely going to be playing 5e.../

3.5 fans, OTOH, have Pathfinder, and, it seems from hearing them edition warring the whole time, quite the ax to grind with WotC. Expecting to win any of them back is maybe a bit optimistic.


But, edition-war factions aside, it's unlikely D&D is facing anything like the unrealistic revenue goals Hasbro pitched for it in 2006 or 7 (whenever the events of that Dancey alluded to happened). There's no sign of it getting massive resources, for instance, no marketing splash, just farmed-out tools, farmed-out introductory adventures, and a slow pace of publication going forward. Costs are probably very low and 'success' is all but assured, even if the inevitable spike in sales at a new core release doesn't hold up for long.

Really nothing to worry about in that regard. D&D will doubtless be a stable product for a while. Until WotC's CCGs stop making money or it otherwise comes to Hasbro's attention again...
 

I keep hearing that but no one is ever able to provide an accurate citation.

"Spokesperson for Wizards of the Coast" isn't good enough for you?

Whatever.

By the way, the article I cited noted that the corebook set for 4E reached #5 on Amazon's best seller list in May of 2008, which was the highest ranking I'd seen to date. So, using the wayback machine, I looked at the best seller figures for the period immediately before and through the available dates two weeks after that date.


The core bookset special for 4E (which sold for $57 and change on Amazon) did peak at #3 on the best seller list on June 1, 2 and 4th. That's higher that anything I've seen to date ... but still not #1.
 

Please share with me any data you have that shows that any previous D&D product reached #1 in books at Amazon.

I asked Mike this very question. He stated that to his knowledge 3.0 (not 3.5) hit this rank back in the day. He pointed out that back in 2000 Amazon had a lot less sales volume. So evidence is that 5e is outselling (for now) other editions of D&D.
 

And this means what again?

Pathfinder is still going strong while 4th edition is where at again?

It's the long term that is the real test I'm afraid. Initial sales of something are actually a given, if not then the product would have done way worse than expected.


Pathfinder is still alive and presumably making a decent profit, but "strong?"

Amazon ratings: Core Rulebook #3,358 in books. Advanced Class Guide (just days from release): #6,654 in books. Beginner Box: #14,134 in Toys and Games. APG: #14,555 in books. Technology Guide (days from release) #24,931 in books. Emerald Spire: #28,336 in books. Bestiary 1: #25, 817 in books. Ultimate Equipment: #43,870 in books. Gamemastery Guide: #54,402 in books. Mythic Adventures: #72,297 in books.

Forgive me if I'm not awed.

4E is dead and gone, but it probably returned a higher profit during its overall lifespan.
 

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