D&D 5E I think WotC has it backwards (re: story arcs)

Wanting a minimal release schedule probably means that the individual does want some product, slowly, for a very long time, for the same game. This person has a vested interest in the life cycle of the game - if it burns out in just a few years, they don't get what they want.

Here's the thing, though. I think (and, yes, I'm guessing, but...) that a lot of the "slow cycle" people envision a sort of "like D&D now, but slower" game line and product development. That the hobby is going to have much the same outline that it does now, except maybe wider.

I don't think that's true. If the parameters and tone I see being batted about hold true, and what WotC wants to happen happens, I think it's a fundamental reshaping of D&D. If 4e was the CRPG-ing of D&D, 5e is the board-gaming of D&D. Or maybe the Lego-ization of D&D. Seen any non-kit, non-branded Legos in a store recently?

Maybe we'd all still be here, on EnW, playing D&D, if Gygax stopped with the 1e PHB, DMG, and MM, but I doubt it.

TTRPGs will survive just fine, but D&D won't be a major part of it. If I were a robot, maybe I wouldn't care, but I'm not and I do.
 

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Even if I agree with you that new DMs don't need to be hand-held and are more creative than are sometimes given credit for, not to mention something I don't think you mentioned, which is that a lot of the reason people play D&D instead of computer games is the creative aspect. So I'll give you all that.
Computer games were on my mind when I posted. Not just because kids will want to tell their own stories or own takes on a video game. But, as Minecraft has shown, kids today are nothing if not creative and inventive.

Because everyone here tends to be so experienced and knows so much it's easy to think of the game as this big daunting beast. Which it can be. But it's not necessarily so, as you can play while muddling through the rules or only half-knowing the game. In the likely event of a brand new person learning the game there won't be much rules lawyering going on as everyone is learning together. It will be one person who kinda sorta knows the rules and a bunch of people looking to them as the expert.
Very often new players will be introduced by someone who already knows: a family member or older relative. Which helps the initial learning curve.
I think we should be wary of things that make the game harder for new players to get into, but I'm less concerned about going out of the way to make things easier for new players. If that makes sense.

But what about those folks, such as myself, who don't have as much time as we did back in the day, that want easily insertible one-shot adventures and pieces to work with, to fit together? I love the creative element of creating a world, putting together a campaign, but struggle with the time to create site locations and adventures.
The difference between a number of small adventures and single big adventures is largely one of presentation. Princes of the Apocalypse is just as simple to pull apart as four 64-page products (but a fraction of the price). I'm super critical of PotA (as can be seen in my review) but one of its strengths is the ability to effortlessly break it into its component dungeons. I'd seriously recommend it as a source of easy inspiration and dungeon maps.

Plus, there's like a bajillion adventures already available for prior editions. Many of which (the 1e and 2e ones) are pretty convertible on the fly, and you can sometimes use low-level 3e ones pretty much as written (the numbers are close enough). And if you're just looking for a site or settlement, no conversion is needed.
Why should WotC work at making dozens of small adventures that are unlikely to sell well when there's already an adventure just right for any situation on D&D Classics? Especially since they still make money for D&D Classics. Each sale of that likely generates as much profit as a new adventure with a fraction of the production costs (since they only need to scan it and not write it). And there are so many gems of adventures - either modules or in old issues of Dungeon - that have been forgotten or seldom played.

And, of course, there's Goodman Games, which has their adventures. I think [MENTION=51747]dmccoy1693[/MENTION] has some adventures in the works. Plus En5sider. It's not like WotC has a monopoly on creativity and their seal of approval magically makes an adventure better.

Looking beyond adventures, I have never run a game in a published setting because I love world building. But I love buying setting books and find them of value to the game as a whole for new reasons beyond the actual use of them in a game. One, they are great resources for ideas and reading enjoyment for folks such as myself. Two, and this is the important one, a living setting brings the game alive in a way that, in my mind, was really lacking from 4E but we can see in Pathfinder, and both 2E and 3E.
If they did it in 2e and 3e but didn't do it in 4e there's very likely a reason. WotC is a business not a charity
Again, WotC likely wants to do a Realms book. But they need more than three months to write it.

If you're just looking for ideas then there are dozens of setting products available on PDFs (or physical copies on eBay), many selling for dirt cheap prices. The ideas and inspiration within are just as valid.
Or go with 3rd Party campaign settings. I have a fondness for Fantasy Flight Games Midnight setting for 3e. Check that out. But there's lots of others. Green Ronin just released an update of their Freeport book that looks fantastic. Ptolus is available as print-on-demand. And there are others in the works by 3PP that aren't out yet because it takes a long time to write a campaign setting.

See, this is where I think WotC just doesn't "get it," and Paizo has gotten it. Not every product needs to meet a certain profit margin. Sometimes you need loss leaders to support the overall brand. A setting is a perfect example. Another good example is a print magazine. Sure, magazines are an old technology and I realize that the chances that we'll ever see an actual print version of Dragon are virtually zero, but in my mind when Dragon stopped being printed there was a hole in the D&D community that was never really filled. I do think the app is a nice move, although we'll see how things go with that.
Paizo is still a business. They don't make products just to make products, and need to prove to themselves that a product will sell before they make it. It took years for them to decide to do the Iron Gods adventure path specifically because they were worried about sales.
For example, their old Flip-Mats have been out of print for years. But many were iconic locations like ships, forests, inns, and the like. There was a continual demand for these to be reprinted (since before there was even a Pathfinder RPG) but Paizo was always reluctant because they needed to sell a minimum amount of copies. Only now, when the brand is HUGE and they have a much larger audience are they risking reprinting these maps. But it took 6-7 years.

Even then, Paizo is a unique case. They're technically a smaller company, so they can manage with lesser profits from products. And they can funnel the profits right back into the business, not having to answer to shareholders. The owner of Paizo is also independently wealthy: Lisa Stevens got paid well for the sale of WotC to Hasbro and started Paizo because she got bored with an early retirement. It's effectively a hobby or even vanity business - albeit one run by someone with a business degree and experience who knows what they're doing. It's great for us fans, but it's not really something other companies can emulate as easily.

As for the magazines, well, there's Gygax Magazine and En5sider.

So all that said, here's a question for you: Why are you so dead-set on defending WotC's current minimalist approach? What harm is there in an increased output of product? Please don't say "edition treadmill" and "glut," as I'm not advocating for the excesses of the past. I'm talking about a fuller schedule of products, one that is diversified and serves more than only those two extremes of the spectrum that want to either play the story arcs, one after the other, or do everything themselves. Imagine a half a dozen other products a year, two or three modules, a splat or two, and a setting book or two? What harm is there in that?
I've answered this multiple times in the past dozen threads on the topic. All arguments on this topic have been made and further discussion is needless. I don't feel the need to stay on "I want more books!!" merry-go-round, and only posted to this thread because I thought it was a slightly different discussion that warranted a response.
 

Anecdata: I'm a player in a Rise of the Runelords campaign using 5E rules. We started in November, playing every 3-4 weeks for 6-8 hours, and I think the DM said we've completed book 4, so we're about 2/3 (?) of the way through it. The DM has repeatedly said how surprised he is at how fast we're getting through it, citing combat speed as the likely factor.

Comparing the anniversary edition of RotRL with the two books of either of WotC's APs, on book thickness alone, they're about equal (I haven't actually read any of these books, so thickness is all I have to go on). So, we're on schedule to complete an AP in 9 months, but a more prolific group could probably do it in 6.

My group got through RotRL in about a year. A 4-6 hour session every other week, with one chapter every two months. Give or take. For a while we were playing in the evenings getting 2 sessions every 3 weeks.
While playing in 5e with faster combat might have knocked that down to 9 months, I might have added more optional and random encounters. I skipped a lot of the fights for speed and to prevent dragging. So it might have easily taken just as long or only a little shorter.

RotRL is actually quite a bit larger than the WotC storyline books. It's 420-pages compared to 256. But Pathfinder's xp system is quite a bit slower than 5e's. So if going by xp rather than milestones they'll quickly level through the content meaning fewer encounters.
So it depends how your DM is updating.

Still, every other week is likely quite fast for games. I know a lot of people that try for monthly games
 

Points to you for an informative response. :)







Two big things here. First, you haven't actually asked me what I want. Suffice to say it's significantly less than Paizo's release schedule, and I currently think it's still well within WotC's stated goals. That's one of the things I'm waiting to see.



Second, keeping up with what? Are you in a race? You can buy books any time. Seriously, it sounds like you're advocating a slower release schedule so you can impulse buy. That's...novel. :) (Also, I'm getting whiplash between the arguments that I should be satisfied with a slow release because I can buy old books, and a slow release because you don't want to buy old books. Different posters, I know.)


Novel it may be....but true. Because the options are so few, I have impulse bought three APs and two DM screens...which with a loaded schedule I may have foreborn due to analysis paralysis...not to mention spousal approval. And it seems WOTC thinks I am not alone. The entire line is currently in easy impulse buy territory.
 

You're conflating at least two types of product here, and not in a useful way. I too was disdainful of published adventures for many, many years. I didn't buy them. I DON'T buy them. But I bought setting material and game accessories because they were interesting and gave me a lot of new ideas in ways that adventures didn't.
This is somewhat true. I definitely picked up the Ravenloft boxed set in my first year of gaming. But it wasn't my first purchase.
I didn't buy many gaming accessories for a long time, and when I did they never really saw use at the table. They were just fun reads more than anything. I could have been just as inspired by a 3rd party book or another gaming company's book or an older edition product.

That said I would be incredibly surprised if we didn't see a campaign setting in the next 18 months. The thing is, those are extremely hard and time intensive to write. I'm astonished by how many people expect WotC to be able to just fire out a Forgotten Realms campaign setting book in three months. I'm sure they *could* if pressed, I just wouldn't want to pay money for it....

Look at what Paizo did for their Campaign setting book:
http://paizo.com/products/btpy84eo?Pathfinder-Chronicles-Campaign-Setting
It came out a year after they started working on the world and took a staggering 28 writers! And many places were thrown together. Updating and revising a setting is almost as much work and requires an incredible amount of research. And, as I've pointed out in the past, it's almost always taken a year (or more) after the Core rules before WotC/TSR has released a campaign product.

I'm not sure what your buying habits were when you were younger, but WotC's current plan seems directly inimical to keeping young you as a returning (not one-time) customer, and anyone similarly interested in homebrewing. I mean, you say but you wouldn't have bought those adventures?/QUOTE]
The catch with the game is that anything beyond the core books are optional and always will be.
While WotC wants to keep me as a customer, it no longer seems like they're relying on me buying new RPG books as a principal source of income.

I wouldn't have bought the storyline books as a kid. Even now I buy them more to support my FLGS than for the content. But gamers are a contrary and diverse lot so it's good to have both. I can't fault DMs for just wanting to run and not write. And there is an appeal to paying $50 for a year of play with little work/prep. And I'm sure there are some new DMs who do want the pre-published adventure.
Young me was an infrequent source of money. I bought three generic D&D books: Tome of Magic, The Complete Ninja's Handbook, and The Complete Book of Humanoids. That's it. But I have a huge library of 2e content: it's all for Ravenloft and Dragonlance though. TSR put out dozens of generic D&D books and I bought almost none.
 

[MENTION=37579]. Imagine a half a dozen other products a year, two or three modules, a splat or two, and a setting book or two? What harm is there in that?

Because where do You draw the line? For you, that's fine but what about other people? Everyone 's line is in a different place.

A splat book a year? Which class? How much are you going to piss people off if you make them wait for their splat? Never minding who do you expect to write it with such a small team. And if they get it wrong? Hoo Boy. Look at the Artificer or Favored Soul from wotc to see lots of sturm und drang.

So yes, there is lots of harm and very little profit in that.
 

Here's the thing, though. I think (and, yes, I'm guessing, but...) that a lot of the "slow cycle" people envision a sort of "like D&D now, but slower" game line and product development. That the hobby is going to have much the same outline that it does now, except maybe wider.



I don't think that's true. If the parameters and tone I see being batted about hold true, and what WotC wants to happen happens, I think it's a fundamental reshaping of D&D. If 4e was the CRPG-ing of D&D, 5e is the board-gaming of D&D. Or maybe the Lego-ization of D&D. Seen any non-kit, non-branded Legos in a store recently?



Maybe we'd all still be here, on EnW, playing D&D, if Gygax stopped with the 1e PHB, DMG, and MM, but I doubt it.



TTRPGs will survive just fine, but D&D won't be a major part of it. If I were a robot, maybe I wouldn't care, but I'm not and I do.


Mearls has explicitly stated that Settlers of Catan and Monopoly are the models for D&D moving forwards: evergreen core rules, occasional themes releases.
 

But I understand what you are saying above, that too much choice has a kind of paralyzing effect. But there is a middle ground, I think, between the current minimalism and the paralyzing glut of previous editions. That is what I'm advocating (and hoping) for. I can understand being paralyzed by the 2E, 3E, and 4E output, but I don't it has to be that extreme and some reasonable choices could be made with a bit more product.
I told myself I wasn't going to comment but...

We have monthly content in the Unearthed Arcana articles (plus any other articles), stuff in Dragon+, the storylines, and the free PDFs that accompany the storylines. Plus whatever they're (almost certainly) working on for GenCon and the Adventurer's League stuff. And all the miniatures, cards, board games, etc.
That's not a small amount of content. It's just not splatbooks/play content. That very much seems like a middle ground.
 


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