D&D 5E I think WotC has it backwards (re: story arcs)

[Parmandur]

Speaking as someone who has used funny dice for years, I just could not wrap my head around their funny dice.



Maybe it works better when you actually use the dice?

Maybe; too hippie-dippie for my blood. Give me solid statistical probability tied to a target number any day.

 

[Trickster Spirit]

What you think you're going to get, and what WotC is actually going to deliver, are not the same thing. I'm not going to get into it because a) I'm hoping it doesn't come to pass and b) it's not going to make sense until afterwards. I'm not thinking 3 months out; I'm thinking 5 years+. And hoping I'm wicked wrong.

If I tell you what I'm expecting five years out, can you tell me what you think I'm wrong about?

In five years, I'm expecting to see biannual AP releases, with accompanying PDF releases along the lines of the Elemental Evil Player's companion. Maybe future APs will have actual print companions and logistics just meant that wasn't feasible for PotA, but I'm not betting on it.

That's it.

Oh, maybe they'll have come out with another monster book in the intervening five years, likely not called MMII - I'm thinking Fiend Folio for the name.

I am expecting them to keep up the Unearthed Arcana articles and Dragon+ articles, or something along the same lines. Maybe after a few years of those they'll put out a play tested Unearthed Arcana hardcover or a Dragon+ Compendium.

But that's the only hardcover supplements I see happening in the next five years, barring any unexpected release announcements later in the year to set a different tone for the edition.

Are you expecting to see even less than that?

 

[Parmandur]

If I tell you what I'm expecting five years out, can you tell me what you think I'm wrong about?







In five years, I'm expecting to see biannual AP releases, with accompanying PDF releases along the lines of the Elemental Evil Player's companion. Maybe future APs will have actual print companions and logistics just meant that wasn't feasible for PotA, but I'm not betting on it.







That's it.







Oh, maybe they'll have come out with another monster book in the intervening five years, likely not called MMII - I'm thinking Fiend Folio for the name.







I am expecting them to keep up the Unearthed Arcana articles and Dragon+ articles, or something along the same lines. Maybe after a few years of those they'll put out a play tested Unearthed Arcana hardcover or a Dragon+ Compendium.







But that's the only hardcover supplements I see happening in the next five years, barring any unexpected release announcements later in the year to set a different tone for the edition.







Are you expecting to see even less than that?

Oh, no, that's about it. Maybe some boxed sets, based on what they have been saying, Starter Set style. You may be right, but that is good.



They have the AL, the board and video games, maybe cartoons, movies, etc. All to the good. They have traded an insupportable model with a working model, that of board games.

 

[Jester David]

Because where do You draw the line? For you, that's fine but what about other people? Everyone 's line is in a different place.

A splat book a year? Which class? How much are you going to piss people off if you make them wait for their splat? Never minding who do you expect to write it with such a small team. And if they get it wrong? Hoo Boy. Look at the Artificer or Favored Soul from wotc to see lots of sturm und drang.

So yes, there is lots of harm and very little profit in that.

They could easily do two small storylined themed splatbooks each year. Or one for every other storyline.

The catch is, once they start mandating that it becomes expected and they have to fill their page count. So if they plan a 160-page book for, say, the Underdark and demon fighting they can have a lot of options related to that. The demon hunter and delver ranger subclasses, the fiendblood sorcerer, the college of darkness, demonic totems, etc. Plus a bunch of spells and new feats. But if that only fills 100-pages then they need to sit down and make more content that doesn't excite or is unrelated to the theme just to hit their quota.
Or, if two years from now, they're doing the "Bane of the Realms" storyline and fighting cultists of the god of hatred and tyranny, and they don't really have any great ideas for a book they still feel obligated to produce something because it's expected, so we get a book for the sake of having a book.

(But, personally, I like the free PDF with the POD option. Since those can be whatever size is needed.)

 

[Hussar]

Um... use half a brain (yeah, only half), and don't make splatbooks along single-class lines, and instead make them along some other theme, and include options for many different classes?

How many different classes though? Say they go the old 3e route with things like Sword and Fist and Song and Silence. Ok, fair enough, you cover groups of classes.

Do you really think people won't bitch just as much about having to wait for "their" most imporantantest evvvvver class splat?

Or that people will bitch because the books are too general and don't contain enough for "their" most imporantantest evvvvver class?

Or that by making the books broad, you're effectively opening up all sorts of rules interactions (since the material is supposed to work for multiple classes) and run smack dab into that pesky power creep problem again?

It's not as easy as all that.

 

[delericho]

How many different classes though? Say they go the old 3e route with things like Sword and Fist and Song and Silence. Ok, fair enough, you cover groups of classes.

Do you really think people won't bitch just as much about having to wait for "their" most imporantantest evvvvver class splat?

If they were going to do single classes, they'd probably have to release them all in pretty quick succession - about one a month. If doing groups of classes, they'd still have to do them fairly rapidly, although a bit less so - probably one a quarter. Either way, you'd want to get them all done in a year or less.

Or that people will bitch because the books are too general and don't contain enough for "their" most imporantantest evvvvver class?

There are reasonable criticisms and there are unreasonable criticisms. WotC are smart enough to know the difference. And, to be honest, the vast bulk of the community also know the difference. So if the result of releasing the 256-page "Underdark Heroes" sourcebook is that people start bitching that it doesn't have enough options for left-handed colourblind Drow Taxidermists, those people will pretty swiftly find themselves on lots of Ignore lists.

Or that by making the books broad, you're effectively opening up all sorts of rules interactions (since the material is supposed to work for multiple classes) and run smack dab into that pesky power creep problem again?

It's not as easy as all that.

There's no approach that is flawless, including releasing nothing (for example, see this thread!). So WotC just need to pick one and go with it. The majority of the fanbase, being reasonable, will accept that approach. And whatever they choose, a relatively small minority (albeit a slightly different, but probably not entirely different, minority for each given approach) will bitch mightily about it.

But be it in three months, a year, five years, or even beyond that, I fully expect WotC to put out some sort of significant expansion of character options, be that a set of splatbooks, or a renamed-PHB2, or something similar. So it's not like they're going to escape those complaints, only delay them. Unless their cunning plan is to eventually drive away their entire customer base so there's nobody left to do the complaining... but if that's their plan, it doesn't seem to be working.

 

[Mercurius]

I've answered this multiple times in the past dozen threads on the topic. All arguments on this topic have been made and further discussion is needless. I don't feel the need to stay on "I want more books!!" merry-go-round, and only posted to this thread because I thought it was a slightly different discussion that warranted a response.

Jester, do you really expect me to not only guess which threads you've answered this in, but scour them for your posts? We're talking here and now. We can go back and forth on the other stuff, but the crux of it, for me, is this: Why are you so attached to a minimalist release schedule? What's wrong with a bit more? Again, I'm not talking glut, just a bit more. Look at my scale above; if, on a scale of 0-5, WotC is currently creating product at a rate of 2, and all-out glut is 5, why not just 3? What does 3 take away from 2?

It goes back to what I think Nellisir said above, which I'll change slightly to be more specific: Just because you want a small portion, why can't others have a slightly larger portion? Or to put it another way, just because you don't want to order a wide variety of items on a menu, why ask that the menu be only limited to your range of preference?

Again, I'm not talking about one of those menus that has pages upon pages of items and it becomes completely paralyzing to choose from. But to me WotC is giving us one of those single-page menus with just a few items on it. Now it might be different if they were allowing others to open up franchises with their own menus...

Because where do You draw the line? For you, that's fine but what about other people? Everyone 's line is in a different place.

A splat book a year? Which class? How much are you going to piss people off if you make them wait for their splat? Never minding who do you expect to write it with such a small team. And if they get it wrong? Hoo Boy. Look at the Artificer or Favored Soul from wotc to see lots of sturm und drang.

So yes, there is lots of harm and very little profit in that.

What I hear you saying is that WotC should stick to a very limited, very conservative approach. This also has potential problems - like losing customers who want a game with more support.

Look, again, I'm not advocating for an all-out glut fest like in editions past. I just would like to see more from WotC, that's all. And an OGL of some kind. For me two story arcs a year plus a few articles and an app is too little.

I'm not even saying this is how it is going to remain, mind you. I'm just saying that I hope they fill the product schedule out a bit. Not a huge amount, but a bit.

I told myself I wasn't going to comment but...

We have monthly content in the Unearthed Arcana articles (plus any other articles), stuff in Dragon+, the storylines, and the free PDFs that accompany the storylines. Plus whatever they're (almost certainly) working on for GenCon and the Adventurer's League stuff. And all the miniatures, cards, board games, etc.
That's not a small amount of content. It's just not splatbooks/play content. That very much seems like a middle ground.

By the way, I'm talking about D&D the roleplaying game - not board games, not even miniatures. And yes, I'm talking about actual printed materials. Call me old fashioned, but articles and Dragon+ and PDFs don't quite have the same excitement to me as a nice hardcover or box set.

We don't know what they're working on for GenCon, if anything. Maybe it is a Forgotten Realms book, or maybe it is a second Monster Manual. Or maybe it is nothing. Regardless, what I'm seeming as minimalist is essentially only two story arcs a year, with a few bits and pieces along the way. But 5E hasn't even been out for a year, so I remain hopeful that they'll fill things out a bit.

 

[Nellisir]

If I tell you what I'm expecting five years out, can you tell me what you think I'm wrong about?
In five years, I'm expecting to see biannual AP releases, with accompanying PDF releases along the lines of the Elemental Evil Player's companion. Maybe future APs will have actual print companions and logistics just meant that wasn't feasible for PotA, but I'm not betting on it.
That's it.
Oh, maybe they'll have come out with another monster book in the intervening five years, likely not called MMII - I'm thinking Fiend Folio for the name.
I am expecting them to keep up the Unearthed Arcana articles and Dragon+ articles, or something along the same lines. Maybe after a few years of those they'll put out a play tested Unearthed Arcana hardcover or a Dragon+ Compendium.
But that's the only hardcover supplements I see happening in the next five years, barring any unexpected release announcements later in the year to set a different tone for the edition.
Are you expecting to see even less than that?

Keeping in mind this is kinda like a worse-case scenario...
I think the monster book will be in a year or two; the compendium in two or three if it happens. The APs in their current form will likewise go a few years. The regular monthly support via online articles and Dragon+ will phase out; there'll be no support for homebrew. Staffing will remain at current levels or drop. Attention will focus on 1-2 releases per year, "AP boxed set" kind of thing, (if I were to pull a number out of my butt, I'd say $75 price point) with maps and stuff included. That's it, though. Nothing in between.

 

[Trickster Spirit]

Keeping in mind this is kinda like a worse-case scenario...
I think the monster book will be in a year or two; the compendium in two or three if it happens. The APs in their current form will likewise go a few years. The regular monthly support via online articles and Dragon+ will phase out; there'll be no support for homebrew. Staffing will remain at current levels or drop. Attention will focus on 1-2 releases per year, "AP boxed set" kind of thing, (if I were to pull a number out of my butt, I'd say $75 price point) with maps and stuff included. That's it, though. Nothing in between.

I think we agree there, but I'm a tad less pessimistic about Dragon+ - if they were planning to get rid of it in a year or two I don't think they'd have bothered making it in the first place.

Unearthed Arcana may eventually go away, but I'm still expecting to see it last long enough for them to eventually turn it into a "fourth core book" - I'll freely admit that might be wishful thinking though.

But yeah, aside from that and a monster book I'm expecting that to be pretty much it except for the APs. I'm not sure they'll go that boxed set route for ordinary APs as boxed sets are surprisingly more expensive than ordinary hardcovers, but maybe they'll be willing to spring for another starter set to onboard new groups.

I should note that until we actually start seeing hardcover supplements accompany the APs, my official prediction is that they'll continue to release player options as smaller PDF companions for each AP, exactly as they did with PotA. No accompanying hardcover has been announced for OotA yet so maybe they've decided there's not enough of a market for hardcover player's option books to make physical releases twice a year a viable strategy for their budget. We might end up seeing the spells, items and subclasses from the PotA, OotA, etc. companions end up in an Unearthed Arcana hardcover, or possibly a completely seperate Adventurer's Handbook. Pure speculation on my part.

But yeah, twice annual APs with a possible third hardcover released every other year.

Personally, I'm fine with that. I could really go for a Dungeon+ app with smaller adventures, and they might even put one out eventually, but for the forseeable future my expectations are set for an Unearthed Arcana every month, a Dragon+ issue every other month, and two APs a year, with a PotA PDF companion. I don't really have any problems with the idea that that's all we'll get with D&D this go-around, but then 5E is my first edition of D&D-proper and I thought Pathfinder was too bloated when I tried to explain to my players what their options for character creation were.

I'll ask not just you, but everyone else still reading this far into the thread - if we turn out to be right about our expected level of output from WotC, do you see yourself playing 5E in five years?

I do.

 

[cmad1977]

If 5th edition only released the 3 core books if be playing it in 5 years.