I used to LIKE third edition...

[Remathilis]

I need to get this off my chest.

My name is Remathilis, and I used to like third edition. A lot. We had some fun times. We had some great games. I ran a successful 3.5 game in Eberron for two years before putting it down to try fourth. There were some complaints I had with the system, but I've ALWAYS complained about D&D. Overall, I was fairly happy with D&D.

Fourth edition changed that.

At first, I was apprehensive. I wasn't completely sold on Bo9S-styled fighters, or wizards having encounter-based magic. I wasn't sure of warlords replacing bards, or tieflings in the core. Or many of the monster changes. Or what they did to the Realms. However, I found I rarely got to voice my misgivings because while I generally found improvements in the system, I found myself defending fourth edition.

A lot.

Here. On WotC Forums. In my own gaming group. The attacks were usually the same, you know them by heart. Slowly, I found two things began to happen.

1.) I found myself defending EVERY SINGLE CHANGE fourth edition made. From tieflings to warlords, to fighters with dailies, and the Spellplague.

2.) I found myself drawn more-and-more into finding the faults with third edition. While I never liked the 15-minute workday when it happened in my games (and to be fair, it didn't happen constantly, but it did enough) I found it intolerable in the lead up to 4e. I found CR/XP tabulating a chore I'd put off until literally the last moment ("Did we get any Xp from last week?")

Every debate I had online or in-person, I found my steel resolved. 3e was broken, 4e was the solution. Pathfinder got a casual once-over, but "it didn't go far enough." Everything 3e that 4e didn't leave or fix was wrong. It got to the point PLAYING 3.5 was unplatable, DMing it again made my stomach nauseous.

Sigh. What have I become?

Generally speaking, I still like fourth edition and find it easy to play, easier to DM, and a lot of fun. I said the same thing about 3e eight years ago. I WANT to like 3e again; to get the joy out of it that I did before 4dventure took over.

I'm just tired of having to defend fourth while simultaneously dissecting third to prove my "point".

Anyone got a suggestion on how to get the magic back? On how to stop worrying and love the d20 system? To see past the flaws and see the game I fell in love with before? Can it be done? Should it be done?

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I'm just tired of having to defend fourth while simultaneously dissecting third to prove my "point".

dissecting third to prove my "point".

Problem found, I'd say.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

I'm just tired of having to defend fourth while simultaneously dissecting third to prove my "point".

And there is the problem. Stop caring and stop trying to defend 4e by trashing 3e. If you like 4e, great. Play it and have fun. People who play 4e don't need to defend themselves anymore than those who like playing 3.x.

 

[Vayden]

3.x is a lovely game if you stick to the sweet spot levels and don't DM it by the book. Personally, I was already getting tired of it and branching out to try Iron Heroes and other options about a year before 4e was announced.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Anyone got a suggestion on how to get the magic back? On how to stop worrying and love the d20 system? To see past the flaws and see the game I fell in love with before? Can it be done? Should it be done?

Pretend you're Stephen Colbert and go solely with your "gut." Don't believe the complaints people lob against either edition unless you've found them true yourself. I still don't see why 4e is like a videogame at all, no matter how often it's said. For every point that 4E like videogames has more generic similarities in the capalbilites of characters, there's a point about the massive list of accumulated items and greater importance of gear in general of 3E. I still don't see calculating XP in 3E to be hard, cause in my experience, I've gotten used to it. Just need a calculator and either a decent memory or somewhere to write to later add up each amount together. Heck, after a while, you even start noticing the trends in amounts and rate of change. So I'll never be affected by either of those.

If you liked a system before, there's no reason a new, very different one should change that. In my case, I didn't like 4e on its own merits from the beginning, absent of how it's different from 4E (heck, I prefer 2E). I'd find it equally silly if some new person got introduced to D&D by 4E, played a few years and enjoyed it, then discovered 3E and suddenly "hated" 4E.

 

[Scribble]

Eh... I say, much like others, just play D&D (whatever edition) and have fun with it. You're not a designer (in this case at least) so you have no reason to need to "justify" any changes you make. Just have fun. Post about fun stuff you're doing, and ignore anyone that wants to tell you why your fun experience actually wasn't for whatever reason.

 

[fba827]

Plus, why bother spending time arguing with someone that you don't know (other than a screen name on a forum) whose opinion differs from yours? Chances are you're not going to change their opinion unless they are on the fence or _asking_ for opinions. Just don't bother getting in to such forum discussions and have fun with your game rather than finding ways to argue about it.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I need to get this off my chest.

My name is Remathilis, and I used to like third edition. A lot. We had some fun times. We had some great games. I ran a successful 3.5 game in Eberron for two years before putting it down to try fourth. There were some complaints I had with the system, but I've ALWAYS complained about D&D. Overall, I was fairly happy with D&D.

Fourth edition changed that.

At first, I was apprehensive. I wasn't completely sold on Bo9S-styled fighters, or wizards having encounter-based magic. I wasn't sure of warlords replacing bards, or tieflings in the core. Or many of the monster changes. Or what they did to the Realms. However, I found I rarely got to voice my misgivings because while I generally found improvements in the system, I found myself defending fourth edition.

A lot.

Here. On WotC Forums. In my own gaming group. The attacks were usually the same, you know them by heart. Slowly, I found two things began to happen.

1.) I found myself defending EVERY SINGLE CHANGE fourth edition made. From tieflings to warlords, to fighters with dailies, and the Spellplague.

2.) I found myself drawn more-and-more into finding the faults with third edition. While I never liked the 15-minute workday when it happened in my games (and to be fair, it didn't happen constantly, but it did enough) I found it intolerable in the lead up to 4e. I found CR/XP tabulating a chore I'd put off until literally the last moment ("Did we get any Xp from last week?")

Every debate I had online or in-person, I found my steel resolved. 3e was broken, 4e was the solution. Pathfinder got a casual once-over, but "it didn't go far enough." Everything 3e that 4e didn't leave or fix was wrong. It got to the point PLAYING 3.5 was unplatable, DMing it again made my stomach nauseous.

Sigh. What have I become?

Generally speaking, I still like fourth edition and find it easy to play, easier to DM, and a lot of fun. I said the same thing about 3e eight years ago. I WANT to like 3e again; to get the joy out of it that I did before 4dventure took over.

I'm just tired of having to defend fourth while simultaneously dissecting third to prove my "point".

Anyone got a suggestion on how to get the magic back? On how to stop worrying and love the d20 system? To see past the flaws and see the game I fell in love with before? Can it be done? Should it be done?

This sounds very familiar. I enjoyed 3E a lot.

Problem found, I'd say.

Yes. But the problem might not be what you think it is. Oh, well, it probably is, but I'd like not to be in the position to "defend" 4E at all.

I've seen stuff repeated a lot of times, and always feel the need to post my typical answers. "Uh-oh, X daily martials hurt my suspension of disbelief, how can anyone play that game" - "By seeing it as a narrative device, not necessarily a conscious choice of the character blablabla". Maybe the repeating stuff can't be avoided (it happened even in the old 3E threads "How does Grapple work", "Greater Cleave, Whirlwind + Bag of Rats - broken?", "My Paladin killed Kobold babies and lost his powers - is the DM unfair?", "What does RAW stand for?")
But it's still tiresome.

And then, why do some people have the need to attack it? Why can't we just state what we like from "our" game (and what not), and then maybe discuss how the games differ without trying to make any judgment. And don't tell me everything is implicitly "in my opinion". Telling someone "In my opinion, you're an idiot" is still judgmental and does nothing to defuse the situation.

All the current attitude achieves is that no one is willing to talk about the stuff he doesn't really like in his choice of system (if he actually made a choice), and this doesn't lead us anywhere.

It's all in our heads, of course, but since it's there, we could actually try to change it!

 

[Lackhand]

Stuff

Flames you. Gently. Just to maintain the balance of the force.

While I know, share, and commiserate with your point of view, I find it hard to believe that this thread will fair any better than other threads which devolve into edition war bait.

Good luck.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

If you like the design paradigms and enjoy playing the game, you don't need to defend anything. Simply play, and have fun. If you want to discuss why you like certain aspects of 4th edition, approach it not from what you disliked about the older edition, but why the new way works for you. The past need not be thrown down to discuss the present.