I want to try out a different way of doing racial ability scores in my next campaign, want to poke holes at it?

NotAYakk

Adventurer
So a 1 point difference in Cha caused a character to fall behind the power curve of the group...?

I think that's your problem right there.

Fix the 1 point if you want, but I would be more worried about the concern of the power curve myself.
So +0 cha gives you a 15, or +2 modifier. Which means 2.5 feats to 20 cha, or level 12 before maxing the stat.

While you may think maxing the stat isn't important, by level 12 some foes can have +10 in a save.

A 20 cha gives a save of 17, vs 16 with 19. So a "hit" rate of 30% vs 25%. That is big. With metamatic, that becomes 49% vs 44%; so the 20 cha sorcerer is 1.1x to 1.2x better at landing the spell.

It hurts. I mean you aren't nerfed to "barely better than a commoner" but...
 

LordEntrails

Adventurer
So +0 cha gives you a 15, or +2 modifier. Which means 2.5 feats to 20 cha, or level 12 before maxing the stat.

While you may think maxing the stat isn't important, by level 12 some foes can have +10 in a save.

A 20 cha gives a save of 17, vs 16 with 19. So a "hit" rate of 30% vs 25%. That is big. With metamatic, that becomes 49% vs 44%; so the 20 cha sorcerer is 1.1x to 1.2x better at landing the spell.

It hurts. I mean you aren't nerfed to "barely better than a commoner" but...
Wow, your perception of 5% is much different than mine. And that 5% difference would only be around for a maximum of 4 levels.

I can say that when I design and run adventures, no story is ever going to be determined by a difference of 5%. But that's my perspective.

You do you.
 

PsyzhranV2

Adventurer
Wow, your perception of 5% is much different than mine. And that 5% difference would only be around for a maximum of 4 levels.

I can say that when I design and run adventures, no story is ever going to be determined by a difference of 5%. But that's my perspective.

You do you.
Depends on how long you spend at the lower levels before getting that ASI, and how long the game will actually run which impacts how many ASIs total you get.
 

chrisshorb

Everything's Fine
So, do you think this breakes anything? Is there a way to improve it?
Seems over designed.
I do this:
Every PC gets +2 to one attribute, and +1 to another, regardless of race. I don't allow variant Human.

As someone mentioned up thread - PCs are special.

And in a population of X millions of X race, there's going to be outlyers. That's what makes them special. So having a 1st level Gnome Barbarian with an 17 strength is totally possible. She may be the only gnome on the planet with that high strength - but she can exist.
 

Bolares

Adventurer
People, I love the advices, and agree it seems over designed when written out, but in reality its quite simple, take 1 +1 from the race and put it in the class. That said, maybe I'll do something simples, depends on how the group feels.

about 5% being relevant or not... that seems kind of irrelevant for the thread. What is important to me is how my players feel. If they feel underwhelmed by that 5% difference (in every single stat that matters to their casting) I will try to pay attention to it. This is not an issue of balancing the game's math, but making the game better to what my players want of it.
 

ad_hoc

Hero
People, I love the advices, and agree it seems over designed when written out, but in reality its quite simple, take 1 +1 from the race and put it in the class. That said, maybe I'll do something simples, depends on how the group feels.

about 5% being relevant or not... that seems kind of irrelevant for the thread. What is important to me is how my players feel. If they feel underwhelmed by that 5% difference (in every single stat that matters to their casting) I will try to pay attention to it. This is not an issue of balancing the game's math, but making the game better to what my players want of it.
Why ask the question then?
 

Bolares

Adventurer
Why ask the question then?
I've asked if there is some problem with the house rule not if people think getting a 14-15 instead of a 16-17 to the main stat is relevant... That may be an interesting discussion, and if people want to have it here... sure, but that was not what I was asking and I felt it was necessary to clarify.
 

LordEntrails

Adventurer
about 5% being relevant or not... that seems kind of irrelevant for the thread. What is important to me is how my players feel. If they feel underwhelmed by that 5% difference (in every single stat that matters to their casting) I will try to pay attention to it. This is not an issue of balancing the game's math, but making the game better to what my players want of it.
This is, imo, the absolute right attitude to have. I didn't get that from your OP, hence raising the issue about what problem needed solving.

I don't think your solution is very cumbersome. Detailing it is a little long winded, but as you simplify it to just moving a +1 from a race to the class then it's simple. the details are only needed to clarify the edge cases and 'what-ifs'.
 

jmartkdr2

Explorer
I've run "no racial ability mods; you get a +2 to one ability and a +1 to another at character creation."

It did exactly what I wanted it to: it allowed more variety of builds without players feeling like they gimped themselves, while creating no negative impacts. Orcs still feel orcy, etc, because of racial traits and roleplaying.
 
I hate racial ability bonuses. It gets in the way of character concept, because it's too tempting to optimize.

I think bonuses should have been based on class in the first place.
 
My suggestion would be to go full on 13th Age.

Each race gets a +2 from choice of two.
Each class gets a +2 from choice of two.
They can't be the same one.

So race will influence your character, but you will always have a +2 matching what your class needs.
This is a good solution, too.
 

Horwath

Adventurer
My suggestion would be to go full on 13th Age.

Each race gets a +2 from choice of two.
Each class gets a +2 from choice of two.
They can't be the same one.

So race will influence your character, but you will always have a +2 matching what your class needs.
one idea would be that class give +1 to one of 3 scores. Then you avoid having it double down with racial bonus.

I.E.

Barbarian: str, dex or con
Bard: dex, int or cha
Cleric: str, wis or cha
Druid; str, int or wis
Monk; str, dex or wis
Fighter; str, dex or con
Paladin; str, wis or cha
Ranger; str, dex or wis
Rogue; dex, int or cha
Sorcerer; con, int or cha
Warlock; dex, int or cha
Wizard; dex, in or wis
 

Coroc

Adventurer
So, I'm in the last 1/3 of Tomb of annihilation, and I'm already planning our next campaign, wich will be set in Eberron. In this current game, one thing has being bothering me. One player chose to play an Air genasi storm sorcerer, for RP reasons. The race and class work perfectly in theme, but the racial ability scores made the character fall a little behind power wise. The player loves the character, but I can sense that the low Charisma score bothers him a bit. I don't believe that players should be penalized for thinking outside the box when choosing race/class combinations, so I thinking of borrowing some ideas from PF2 and other games and giving classes a +1 to a main score on character creation.

This is how I'm planning to do it:

  • Races with a +2 in a racial score get a +1 on it instead;
  • Races with only +1 to multiple scores lose one of those scores and can't chose the same scorethey will receive from their class;
  • Classes give +1 to 1 ability score. I'm usingthemulticlass pre-requisites as a base to wich score a class can improve, as follows:

ArtificerIntelligence
BarbarianStrength
BardCharisma
ClericWisdom
DruidWisdom
FighterStrength or Dexterity
MonkDexterity or Wisdom
PaladinStrength or Charisma
RangerDexterity or Wisdom
RogueDexterity
SorcererCharisma
WarlockCharisma
WizardIntelligence
This +1 is only received on the 1st level, and does not affect choosing a new 1st level class for multiclassing purposes.



So, do you think this breakes anything? Is there a way to improve it?
Breaks nothing, it shifts the planning using +1 ASI feats and whatever a bit. Although it also does not change much as well, since normally people tend to optimize their prime score for their class.
 

Coroc

Adventurer
Yes, only to the first class chosen.

Non variant humans gain 5 +1s but none can be put in the same score as the one you will receive from your class.
That one is a bit unfair, just make them loose one but without a restriction. Humans get more + to attribute at the beginning because other class do get mighty goodies:

e.g. darkvision, Armor proficiency, saving with advantage (Gnome) etc.

Some of these goodies are worth far more than a +1 ASI.

Also with ruling it like I suggest, the human is not outpaced by mountain dwarf for strength which is ridiculous. (Halforc being stronger than human at level 1 is ok, but not mountain dwarf imho)
 

Coroc

Adventurer
I've run "no racial ability mods; you get a +2 to one ability and a +1 to another at character creation."

It did exactly what I wanted it to: it allowed more variety of builds without players feeling like they gimped themselves, while creating no negative impacts. Orcs still feel orcy, etc, because of racial traits and roleplaying.
What about humans? They stay at +1 to all? Or do you only allow human variant ?

If you only give +2 +1 to human standard you nerf them a bit for certain builds.

Btw no player is gimped by a +1 difference in an attribute score. At +2 you can start complaining. Anyhow if everything is balanced out over the races you can set any threshold you want, but do not forget to give standard humans 2x the asi of the other classes, e.g. you reduce it to +1 then standard human should get 2x +1 or 1x +2, If you say I want more and give other races a +2 x 3 times then standard human should have +2 for each attribute.
 

ART!

Explorer
Another way of doing something similar:

Race: +1 in whatever ability score that race normally gives you a +2 in.
Class: +1 in whatever that class' quick build recommends as your highest ability score.
Background: +1 in...whatever makes sense for that background.

As per normal, you can't have more than a +2 from any of that at 1st level.
 

NotAYakk

Adventurer
Or my funish method.

Everyone gets a 15 and a 14 in stats of their choice.

They the roll 4d6 drop lowest in order for remaining stats.

Then they can swap 2 of the random-gen stats.

Then add racials. Then add a +1, but not to a stat they get a racial bonus to (except baseline human, who can stack it).

This means you (a) are guaranteed a 16 or 17 in your "primary" stat regardless of race (hence a +3 mod), and at least a 14 in a secondary (maybe 16), and (b) the rest of your stats are somewhat random, and (c) a high chance of a decent (13+) in a tetriary (but maybe much better).

Most 5e builds have a primary and secondary stat that have the largest balance impact. Sane people will use the 15/14 for those. So balance wise this is similar to standard array, just with higher and more chaotic tetriary stats.

And, by having the high stat at 15, a +1 vs +2 is less important; they both generate a +3 mod. One gets to grab a half-feat on the way to maxing the stat.
 

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