ICE and the ENnies

[HellHound]

volunteering for a d20 publisher's promotional tool

You know as well as I do that the ENnie awards predate the existance of Natural 20 Press or ENPublishing.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

You know as well as I do that the ENnie awards predate the existance of Natural 20 Press or ENPublishing.

Wait a second, have you won anything since Portable Hole Full of Beer?

You're doing a heckuva job gamin' the system, bro. You know, not winning any awards for products that you're not giving away for free isn't exactly the world's most efficient promotional tool.

 

[Allensh]

This discussion has had one effect on me. It does not make me feel positive towards ICE.

Of course, since ICE's original incarnation published something by me, signed a contract to pay me $50 and never did, I don't feel too positive about ICE anyway.

(That would be in Hero System Almanac #1, the article on converting Justice Inc. to Hero System 4th edition, in case you want to look it up. Steve Peterson added material to it so his name is on the article too.)

Allen Shock

 

[billd91]

If this had happened in the OAs, then it would actually have been democratic, since the general public votes on noms. And note that this is in an awards ceremony that is not exactly held up as a shining example. To actually behave in a less accounatble fashion than the OAs . . . that's a certain *kind* of impressive, I guess.

But it wasn't. It was a bunch of guys volunteering for a d20 publisher's promotional tool who made the decision, with at least one of them being an on-again, off again writer for that system, and some of the rest being the same guys -- in some cases for several years running. That doesn't look like any kind of dynamic, fan-informed process. It may not *be* lousy, but it doesn't look all populist, either.

Let's not forget that a "populist" approach to selecting nominations is subject to a great deal of systematic bias as well. People will have a tendency to vote for the products they have a direct experience with and that leads to a bias for the higher volume seller.
The voting for the winners with the ENnies is subject to the same bias, but having a small panel of judges pick the nominees gives a smaller selling but high quality item a better footing to compete. At least it can get its foot in the door.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't care if it is industry insiders working on the panel as long as they're selected in a democratic way after disclosing their industry connections and managing any conflicts of interest they may have.

 

[eyebeams]

You know as well as I do that the ENnie awards predate the existance of Natural 20 Press or ENPublishing.

Before that it was ENWorld's promotional tool.

 

[eyebeams]

Wait a second, have you won anything since Portable Hole Full of Beer?

You're doing a heckuva job gamin' the system, bro. You know, not winning any awards for products that you're not giving away for free isn't exactly the world's most efficient promotional tool.

Did you also know that when other companies have contests, they don't let themselves win and it still counts as promotion? I know, I know -- it beggars the imagination.

 

[Treebore]

That's really a absurd parody of the other position. The awards are obviously set up to have a bias. This is for a good reason, because otherwise, the awards wouldn't work. But it's not arising spontaneously from the pure-hearted sentiments of unblemished fandom.



Really? Did the fans pick the judge requirements that allow industry participation or set the primary venue for awards announcements?

Of course not. That was Tim Dugger's complaint. And the response was to subject him to the virtual equivalent of a public stoning (and with, I might add, a rather relaxed moderator response time when compared to many other issues). If someone had merely told Tim that interest in promoting the awards outweighed any advantages to putting forum content for them on another board, that might have been something decent. Instead, he was treated to responses that I would at least characterize as petty, and at worst would say made his argument for him far more strongly than he could.



Actually, nobody has a special obligation to vote, and whether or not people vote from elsewhere doesn't change the site-centric nature of it at all. It's not "rigged," but it's not neutral. It it was at a neutral site, it would be much less popular. That;s a good reason for the awards' bias, but it doesn't make that bias go away.



Actually, my point is that it is an "industry" award. It's not a bona fide fan award. It's just a game company that gets a mix of game company guys and freelance guys to vote on some game company offerings. There is no point in the process where the word "game company" does not involve itself.

Well, irregardless of your opinion, there are several thousand people who disagree with you, so I will continue to side with their over all opinions of the ENNIE's.

 

[Morrus]

Before that it was ENWorld's promotional tool.

Actually, it was a "hey, wouldn't it be cool if we did that?" It is not a promotional tool for EN Publishing or EN World, although I am sure that both benefit a little as a side-effect. "Promotional tool" implies motive.

 

[DaveyJones]

If this had happened in the OAs, then it would actually have been democratic, since the general public votes on noms. And note that this is in an awards ceremony that is not exactly held up as a shining example. To actually behave in a less accounatble fashion than the OAs . . . that's a certain *kind* of impressive, I guess.

But it wasn't. It was a bunch of guys volunteering for a d20 publisher's promotional tool who made the decision, with at least one of them being an on-again, off again writer for that system, and some of the rest being the same guys -- in some cases for several years running. That doesn't look like any kind of dynamic, fan-informed process. It may not *be* lousy, but it doesn't look all populist, either.

um.. the judges were voted into their positions ahead of time. they were representative of the people who voted for them.

they voted based on what they said they would do. diaglo ... aka me... ran on my hat of d02. i represented my peeps.

there is a call currently for people to run as judges.

 

[eyebeams]

Let's not forget that a "populist" approach to selecting nominations is subject to a great deal of systematic bias as well. People will have a tendency to vote for the products they have a direct experience with and that leads to a bias for the higher volume seller.
The voting for the winners with the ENnies is subject to the same bias, but having a small panel of judges pick the nominees gives a smaller selling but high quality item a better footing to compete. At least it can get its foot in the door.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't care if it is industry insiders working on the panel as long as they're selected in a democratic way after disclosing their industry connections and managing any conflicts of interest they may have.

I think the ENnies should be a fan award. Plus, too many people know each other; I can see situations where *every* judge has to recuse themselves. That'll either grind things to a halt of the judges will cheat.

On the other hand, I think a certain amount of bias is necessary because it goes with running the awards successfully. Orphan websites don't seem like a great idea.