Ice Archon

[Wormwood]

Whoops, that's what happens when you start reading the thread from the end...

No worries, man.

You didn't miss anything important.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

May I point out that the discussion seems to be leading in circles - once some good counterpoints to one position are posted, the arguments are switched to a slightly different aspect, and we start anew. I guess we'll reach a real circle soon and get to the first set of arguments/counterpoints?

Well, coming up with some "scientific" explainations was fun to me, but there is a point where there isn't really that much to add.

Personally, I don't really see a need for immunities...

 

[HeinorNY]

I guess we'll reach a real circle soon and get to the first set of arguments/counterpoints?

There are a limited number of words in the dictionary, and a limited number of combinations with those words, so there must be an end

 

[Derren]

The game designers have decided that absolute immunities are either rare or non-existent, because it they believe it makes for a better game,

That is another thing I do not agree with.
The instances where a character would be rendered completely useless by (single) energy immunity are more theoretical than practical as it is (in 3E at least) very hard to build a character who only uses fire combat spells. When you do not use splatbooks and do it for a energy type other than fire it is probably impossible unless the character is so badly build that he would not be played in any real game (hence theoretical).

And even if such a character exists, he would still be rather useless when facing such high resistance enemies. The resistence only conceals the ineffectiveness of this character and lead to that new players might not realize that they would be better of in using their secondary abilities.

Also removing immunities is again mostly a good thing for wizards. Fighters will still have the "useless unless played "smart" moments when they encounter flying enemies and have no ranged weapons (and swordman without ranged weapons are as common, or even more common in fantasy literature than single elemental wizards).

And loosing immunities means loosing a bit of the fantastic elements of D&D and replace it with a scientific element (just see this thread). You will likely no longer have scenes like a red dragon crawling out of a crater of a volcano, still dripping magma from its scales when it engages the party as its resistance would not allow it to do that.

So I really don't see how loosing immunities would make the game better.

 

[AZRogue]

I think the WALL was on page 2 and some people are still back there hitting their head on it. It's been fun, though.

 

[malraux]

Is it worth pointing out that ice has different phases? Perhaps the ice archon can only survive with it's ice in one phase but not the lower energy ones. The latent energy needed to cross the phase would even explain why it has an energy resistance.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

There are a limited number of words in the dictionary, and a limited number of combinations with those words, so there must be an end

Well, but if the thread is long enough, you might enter repeating passages without even noticing it, since our grand-grand-children forget what I wrote (or rather "waved" in via my wireless brain data transceiver) on page 19,503 of this thread!

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Is it worth pointing out that ice has different phases?

My answer would be: Hardly. I think both sides gave all important reasons for their view on the resistance issue. I suspect neither sides moves, so the mountain of arguments can be used by the undecided to formulate their own preferences.

I think the topic was Ice Archon Stats, and we seem a bit too concentrated on the resistance issue, which is only a small part of the stat block...

 

[Goblyn]

And loosing immunities means loosing a bit of the fantastic elements of D&D and replace it with a scientific element (just see this thread). You will likely no longer have scenes like a red dragon crawling out of a crater of a volcano, still dripping magma from its scales when it engages the party as its resistance would not allow it to do that.

So I really don't see how loosing immunities would make the game better.

Not at all. Such cinematic moments would/should be reserved for the final face-off against Uberscorch the Great Wyrmlord of the flaming pits of Burnination, not for just 'a red dragon'.

As an aside, is it known whether immunities are completely gone, or simply scaled back to an acceptable(only the most powerful/primal beings having them) level?

 

[Mirtek]

Yes it does. It corrects our intuitive understanding that by "living fire", archons would be incorporeal.

No, not incorporeal. Gaseous maybe, but fire (and also air) is not incorporeal (in the D&D sense of the word. Even an gaseous air elemental can't go through airtight walls but an incorporeal creature would just pass through them)

No. It doesn't feel solid, it is solid.

Which still doesn't change Derren's point that it's just made of living flame. Whether living flames are solid, gaseous or liquid doesn't change that they're still living flames.