Ice Archon

[FourthBear]

Which still doesn't change Derren's point that it's just made of living flame. Whether living flames are solid, gaseous or liquid doesn't change that they're still living flames.

Flames aren't solid, nor are they cool enough to be touched without burning. They also have a very low density, which I also suspect is not consistent with the Flame Archon. In fact, the Fire Archon's "living flames" only resemble real fire in the most superficial of ways, if we're going to treat this rationally. Things like mass, solidity and temperature are pretty big factors to ignore.

The text may claim that Fire Archons are composed of "living flame", but apparently living flame isn't particularly similar to real-world, standard flame. So why would anyone think they could predict how "living flame" would behave when it doesn't particularly resemble actual flame in so many ways?

 

[Stogoe]

So the DDM Ice Archon makes the surrounding terrain icy. Will the 4e stats have PCs falling on their faces if they try to charge the Ice Archon? Because that might be interesting.

 

[AZRogue]

So the DDM Ice Archon makes the surrounding terrain icy. Will the 4e stats have PCs falling on their faces if they try to charge the Ice Archon? Because that might be interesting.

I'm not sure, but it seems implied that taking a 5' step (Shifting?) wouldn't be possible within the area of effect of the Ice Archon's cold terrain ability. Might make things a bit more tactically difficult. I'm not sure if the PCs could just move through such terrain, though. If it limited that area even further it may make for some interesting tactical decisions during play.

 

[HeinorNY]

Which still doesn't change Derren's point that it's just made of living flame.

Which still doesn't change the fact that it is solid.
If it is solid, it has matter
If it has matter it has molecules.
If it has molecules it can be affected, "harmed" or "detroyed" by too high temperatures or too low temperatures.

Flames are not solid.
"Living flames", whatever that means, don't exist in the real world and so the only thing we know about them is what the rules and the article tell us: They are solid and can be harmed by extreme temperatures.
So saying that it's a "living flame" really doesn't help in your argument.

 

[FourthBear]

Which still doesn't change the fact that it is solid.
If it is solid, it has matter
If it has matter it has molecules.
If it has molecules it can be affected, "harmed" or "detroyed" by too high temperatures or too low temperatures.

I'm completely with you that we cannot predict how living flames work, since they don't resemble real flames in so many ways. I'm not sure that you can conclude that in the D&D world, everything solid has to be composed of matter. It's just one of the those cases where we can't really make any conclusions, since the D&D world clearly doesn't resemble ours in so many ways (able to transmit forces without a clear medium, for example).

 

[HeinorNY]

I'm not sure that you can conclude that in the D&D world, everything solid has to be composed of matter. It's just one of the those cases where we can't really make any conclusions, since the D&D world clearly doesn't resemble ours in so many ways (able to transmit forces without a clear medium, for example).

I know, but we are not trying to conclude, by using "scientific" arguments, if the Fire Archon has a solid body and if this body can be damaged by fire. We already know that. We are just trying to rationalize and imagine how that happens using the only science we have access to, because it's fun and because some people needs to believe it in order to have fun. Just saying the "Primordial Lords created them that way" is not good enough.

What I have noticed from years in this and other D&D forums, and by no means I'm referring to your post, is that when someone comes with a very good fantastic and imaginative explanation, someone else disputes that using real world physics rationalization AND when someone makes up a very good "scientific" explanation for anything in the rules, someone else comes and uses the "D&D is a magical world with magical laws of physics" to dispute that. It's insane!

 

[pawsplay]

I just want to go on record as saying I think extra damage versus slowed opponents is one of the silliest things I have ever seen in an RPG.

 

[FourthBear]

I just want to go on record as saying I think extra damage versus slowed opponents is one of the silliest things I have ever seen in an RPG.

Oh, I don't think it's that silly. The Ice Archon's primary attack has a freezing component that slows the opponent, presumably representing the impeding effects of ice and chill. Since this is the Archon's primary attack, it is specially aware of how to take advantage of opponents hindered by slowed reactions, thus extra damage. Since D&D combat is rather abstract, you could represent it as more successful strikes overall or the ability to reach a more vulnerable spot that an opponent with normal reflexes could typically defend. It's just representing the ability to follow up a successful slowing strike to full effect.

It wouldn't even make the Top 100 silly things in the D&D Monster Manuals, let alone RPGs, IMO.

 

[AllisterH]

I just want to go on record as saying I think extra damage versus slowed opponents is one of the silliest things I have ever seen in an RPG.

Thanks. I thought I was the only one else interested in the crunchy bits of this preview.

If our guesses are right, how does this stack up in comparison to the level 26 Fiend and the level 6 spined devil? Can we extrapolate the increase in say the attack power/defense power of the classes?

For example, how well does an ice archon stand up to a level 26 pit fiend?

 

[FourthBear]

For example, how well does an ice archon stand up to a level 26 pit fiend?

Not very well at all. It would be pretty much a icebreaking party, I would think. All stats are across the board higher for the Pit Fiend, including movement and saving throws. Much better and more numerous special abilities, particularly including the power to summon monsters. Do we know what level the Ice Archon is supposed to be?