Ice Beast question

[the Jester]

Humm, was looking at the Ice Beast template in Frostburn (pg 138-140). It's a cool way to make an ice statue of a normal monster (the sample ice beasts are gargoyles).

But I had a question... Under Feats, it reads:

An ice beast loses all feats except those that improve its attack, such as Improved Natural Attack, Multiattack, or Weapon Finesse.

Thinking about this, I got to wondering what qualifies under this clause. What do you think about the following feats:

Weapon Focus (and Greater WF)
Weapon Specialization (and Greater WS)
Two-Weapon Fighting (et. al.)
Quickdraw (the template allows for ice beasts with manufactured weapons)
Power Attack
Improved Critical
Power Critical
Combat Reflexes
Cleave (and Great Cleave)
Combat Expertise

The way I parse the text, the question is, what exactly constitutes "improving its attack"? The three examples we are given have three distinct effects: 1. Increasing damage (INA); 2. Reducing attack penalties (Multiattack) (which may also be viewed as increasing your chance to hit); and 3. Using a different ability score to improve your chance to hit.

I don't think that it's entirely clear where the edge of this clause is...

 

[skelso]

Yep, I'd say pretty much all of those would stay in the stat block. Maybe not Combat Expertise, but I'd personally leave it in. I think what they are really trying to say is that it would not make sense for your Ice Beast to have, say, Scribe Scroll or Skill Focus (Spellcraft) as a feat.

 

[Jhaelen]

I recently ran into the same question with the Elder Eidolon template in Lords of Madness. Regarding your list:

Ice Beasts are constructs, thus they don't have a Con or an Int score. So they cannot have Combat Expertise.

I'm not sure about Cleave and Combat Reflexes. Are there any animal Int creatures that have one of those feats? If there are, then they're probably also okay for a non-intelligent construct. If there aren't then using these two feats may require some kind of voluntary tactical decision, which a construct isn't capable of.

If I had to make a rule on it, I'd allow both:

Cleave doesn't really require a decision - it's automatic whenever another creature is nearby when you drop a foe.

I'd also allow Combat Reflexes with the restriction that the Ice Beast has to make an AOO whenever an opportunity presents itself, i.e. it wouldn't be able to decide not to make an AOO to reserve it for another foe acting later in the round.

 

[Nifft]

I don't think that it's entirely clear where the edge of this clause is...

IMHO the intent is: "don't muck with the Attack line of the stat block". So anything included in that line, leave it alone. If the designers figured in Power Attack, he keeps Power Attack.

Cheers, -- N

 

[the Jester]

IMHO the intent is: "don't muck with the Attack line of the stat block". So anything included in that line, leave it alone. If the designers figured in Power Attack, he keeps Power Attack.

Cheers, -- N

But they call out the revised BAB for becoming a construct....

 

[Nifft]

But they call out the revised BAB for becoming a construct....

Gah. Okay, then we may have no clear basis to intuit their intention. Poor writing IMHO.

I'll go with "whatever gives you the least trouble". :\

Cheers, -- N

 

[the Jester]

Gah. Okay, then we may have no clear basis to intuit their intention. Poor writing IMHO.

I'll go with "whatever gives you the least trouble". :\

Cheers, -- N

If I don't find any clear, convincing arguments, I'll prolly go with "whatever gives my players the most trouble".