ICv2's Top 5 RPGs for Spring 2020 - D&D 3PPs In The Chart!

ICv2's latest set of figures are in (I compile them all here) and, while there's little surprise about D&D followed by Pathfinder coming in the top two places, and Starfinder also featuring, there's a new entry -- "5E-Compatible". These are for Spring 2020. The 5E-Compatible category, according to ICv2's online magazine, shows that collectively third-party D&D products are doing well...

ICv2's latest set of figures are in (I compile them all here) and, while there's little surprise about D&D followed by Pathfinder coming in the top two places, and Starfinder also featuring, there's a new entry -- "5E-Compatible". These are for Spring 2020.

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The 5E-Compatible category, according to ICv2's online magazine, shows that collectively third-party D&D products are doing well, although none individually make the top five chart. Goodman Games was called out in particular, as were Kobold Press and Nord Games. RPGs as a whole, however, took a (small) dip for the first time in years, likely due to COVID.

One retailer commented on WotC's D&D releases, noting that while sales of recent books have been 'OK', it's been a while since a really big hit like the Volo and Xanathar Guides.

1Dungeons & DragonsWizards of the Coast
2PathfinderPaizo
35E-CompatibleVarious
4StarfinderPaizo
5CyberpunkR. Talsorian
 

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Mercador

Adventurer
I'm still fed up at Paizo for the 2E but I would be sad for them if the 2E was a financial nightmare. I guess I'll come back for 3E.
 

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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I feel like there are a number of discussions about PF2 on these boards. Maybe not as much as 5E - but 5E really is a juggernaut.

I was comparing it to the discussion of PF1, not 5e. It's not being discussed even as much as PF1. Not before (though it's not being discussed as much as PF1 was being discussed when it began either), I mean right this moment PF1 is still being discussed more than PF2. At first I thought it was just "PF1 games need time to come to an end" but it's over a year now and STILL PF2 rate of discussion is lower than PF1.

Objectively speaking? PaizoCon had over 1100 game sessions between 1e, 2e, SFS, and PACS.

That isn't the comparison. I am not talking about "Paizo" as a game company. I am talking specifically about PF2. Which means lumping all their other games in makes that stat not helpful.

Paizo had over one-sixth of all Gen Con Online games ran for the convention. Go to Warhorn and see how many 2e games are on it vs. the number of 5e games. At this very moment there are 1293 2e campaigns vs. 421 Adventurer's League campaigns.

I don't know what Warhorn is, and have never heard of it. I can say that AL games shouldn't be a metric of...anything. It's less than 5% of D&D games played. Regardless, my focus is more on whether PF2 is catching on WITH PF1 FANS. And I am not sure it is.
 


dave2008

Legend
Do I have more on this? Yes. I am in the OPO Discord server running games for new 2e players constantly. We have a steady stream of new-to-2e players coming in. The online cons are generating more interest in Org Play and we see that show up in the player base on a daily basis.
That is good to here. I tired to find a group to play PF2e for about 6 months and couldn't find one before I gave up (and my 5e group wouldn't try it). Maybe I need to try looking again.

PS - I don't play on line, only in person.
 

dave2008

Legend
Regardless, my focus is more on whether PF2 is catching on WITH PF1 FANS. And I am not sure it is.
From what I have heard it has definitely fractured the fan base. I don't think as badly as 4e for D&D, but it is a thing. There is even a compnay (legendary games maybe), which planning to make a PF1 clone.

Regardless, simply comparing it to PF1 is not enough to determine if it is successful or not. Right now it does scratch a crunchier itch for some 5e groups and gets some people that way as well. My fear is that it is a tough system for new players and less likely to attract players that way. We just don't really know how well it is doing. Fans say it is doing great, but there is evidence to suggest it is not doing as well as some hoped it would.
 

I think Paizo doing the Humble Bundle with a physical rulebook wasn't the greatest sign as far as people playing and sales numbers but what do I know. Hopefully that coupled with the recent APG release makes it catch on. I think their biggest hope as a brand lies with the Kingmaker PC game coming out on consoles this week.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I think Paizo doing the Humble Bundle with a physical rulebook wasn't the greatest sign as far as people playing and sales numbers but what do I know. Hopefully that coupled with the recent APG release makes it catch on. I think their biggest hope as a brand lies with the Kingmaker PC game coming out on consoles this week.

I did see that. $30 for the core book in hardcopy AND almost everything else they've published for PF2 in PDF format. I mean, there has to be something behind making it such a bargain basement price. But that again doesn't necessarily mean it's doing poorly.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I think Paizo doing the Humble Bundle with a physical rulebook wasn't the greatest sign as far as people playing and sales numbers but what do I know. Hopefully that coupled with the recent APG release makes it catch on. I think their biggest hope as a brand lies with the Kingmaker PC game coming out on consoles this week.
Humble Bundles are a great opportunity for anybody. They made a million dollars.
 

Jimmy Dick

Adventurer
The main rulebook is not what really drives profitability for a company. Game companies like WotC and Paizo make far more money on selling accessories, additional rulebooks, expansions, and adventures. I am far more excited by the upcoming Pathfinder 2e Beginner Box and how that is going to reach out to more people beyond the existing player base.

2e is easy to learn. I've conducted seminars and even built a video for new players on constructing characters. Players pick it up fast.

As for fracturing the player base, I don't think there was any way around it. The first edition was slowing down in overall sales. A company has to sell the product if it expects to continue to exist. Plus, 1e's existing math, based on the 3.5 system's math was not conducive to expansion. The growth of the game had caused a major problem with some rather silly power issues for characters. 2e was built using different math which will handle expansion better. Paizo really needed to create a new edition. What fractured the base was the decision not to make 2e backwards compatible. There was no way to do that with the need to change the underlying math.

My experience with players is that those who don't like 2e have never played it beyond the playtest. If one judges 2e by the playtest, one does not know what they are talking about. Quite a lot from the playtest was discarded or altered including the math. I ran a 8 sessions of PFS2 at Gen Con in 2019 and saw pallets of CRBs sold over 4 days. I also had people sit down to try out the game who during a break went to the kiosk outside the Sagamore Ballroom and bought the CRB. Paizo chose not to continue to make new content for 1e and rightfully so. To do that, they would have had three major product lines going, one of which was generating fewer sales every year. They made a business decision that would sustain the company for the future.

The single biggest problem Paizo has with 2e is a lack of content produced by the company for non-Organized Play customers. They are now selling the third Adventure Path and finally put out a second module, but that's not that much content in my opinion. Part of the reason for that is the pandemic and tariff issues. They originally were going to put out Dead God's Hand, but that got delayed much to my anguish because I really want to run that adventure! But they've got it scheduled for 1Q 2021 along with a few more adventures. The new changes to how Adventure Path's are produced should help that out too (going from 6 books to 3 per AP).

2e is really a great edition. So was 1e and so is 5e. They're all good. That's the nice thing about what is going on. There are plenty of good games to play out there. My point is that Paizo's release of 2e has been successful. There's too much evidence out there that it has been and very little suggesting otherwise. Let me put it this way. Paizo has not laid off any employees and is still putting out new content for 2e and Starfinder in a pandemic that saw FLGs close down across the US for pretty much 2 months. They're embraced virtual table tops and even moved their flagship convention online which was very successful for them. Most of their workforce is now working from home and will do so through the end of the year. I really expect the 2e Beginner Box to open up the game to a much larger player base over the next year and ramp up more sales. I wish they were traded publicly. I'd be buying stock in Paizo.
 

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