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Pathfinder 1E Ideas for Epic Pathfinder

Kaodi

Hero
I think the only anomalous thing you really need to account for in the " progress to max level in any class " model is going to be prestige classes that add to spellcasting level. The simple fix I think would be to just say that spells per day and spells known in a class max out at the highest normal level you can obtain, but caster level keeps going up. So it would make sense in a way to be, say, a Wizard 20/Cypermage 10 instead of a Wizard 20/Alchemist 10.
 

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The way I use Epic characters -

There is only 1 class at epic level (Epic Hero). It gains some skills point, 1 HP, no attack or save bonus. And the only class feature is an Epic feat.

I've made a number of new epic feats that can let a character sort of advance with old class abilities (not unlike the 10th level and higher spells work for mages, or to Hit and HP feats for fighters).

Anything that raises a thing by X bonus (+1 hit, saves, +10 HP etc) in an area that came automatically with non epic classes the character can only take specific feat every 4 levels (Hit, Save, HP, + Skill points ect) - so someone can't get Attack bonus every level.

The actual epic rules I have fit on two pages. Then a whole bunch of Epic feats. Use the OGL epic feats, and invent 10-20 pages of more feats - epic rules done.

I toss Epic Spellcasting completely.

Vareity and endless advancement are there, and not a whole lot of investment in time and resources for the epic PC by the company. Just add an occasional Epic Monster booklet, and you are set. :D
 
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Matthias

Explorer
"Epicness" can exist in two different forms: increased power and increased versatility. The former means "whatever you can do, you can do better" and the latter means "you can do other things besides what you can do".

Increased versatility is simpler to implement, IMO. Rather than try to think of new and better stuff for a character to do which tops the best their class(es) can already do, we already have rules we can use which are designed to work together. Solution number one for this is multiclassing--it may blur "party roles" to encourage it but features from different classes can synergize together, not to mention the usual stuff that stacks--BAB, save bonuses, etc.

Additionally, transforming characters into quasi-deities has its appeal, but the journey to Real Ultimate Power is a thousand times more interesting than reaching the destination.

As GM, I implicitly cap character levels at 60th (and it takes more than just earning XP to get past 20th and 40th) and I would prefer not to inflate any core or base class beyond 20th. I do like the 36-level cap, however.


For a campaign explicitly meant to advance beyond 20th level, I might consider mandating multiclassing above a certain character level, such as 12th or 18th...at every 12th or 18th character level, a new class needs to be picked up. A character can add a class sooner than this, but IMO either of these would make more sense than "I maxed out at 20th level, so I guess it's time to start learning something else".

This is supposed to represent people often picking up new information not normally related to their preferred line of work (fighters dabbling in rogue, clerics dabbling in paladin, etc.) and there'd be no restriction on what classes can be combined (other than incompatible alignment restrictions). So if a player wants to multiclass Fighter/Ranger or Fighter/Barbarian I would be perfectly fine with that.
 

There has to be some amount of integrity to epic play that is a reliable attachment taken from regular level play.

What is more epic, one man killing an entire civilization or an army killing an entire civilization? Well, perhaps both when we look at the story of Troy.

In epic, there has to be a reasonably progression that can be followed with mechanics that portray the epic structure without becoming over cumbersome. This is the greatest challenge to creating a substantial epic expansion book and I feel that derivatives, algorithms and java script may be our friends.

Cheers,
 

N'raac

First Post
I question how "epic" it will feel for your 20th level Fighter (or rogue, or cleric, or sorcerer) to gain a level and learn to cast Magic Missile (for one missile, of course).

I don't think multiclassing is the answer.
 

Matthias

Explorer
I question how "epic" it will feel for your 20th level Fighter (or rogue, or cleric, or sorcerer) to gain a level and learn to cast Magic Missile (for one missile, of course).

I don't think multiclassing is the answer.

Not 20th.... 12th or 18th.

Anyway, what are other options that can be done with class levels, if we deliberately exclude extending 20-level classes? How about prestige classes? The upcoming Paths of Prestige book may help in this area.

IMO it would take a lot of work add 20 or 40 or more levels to a core/base class, given that unlike D&D3.5, Pathfinder likes to have every class level bestow some kind of new meaningful ability or an enhancement of an existing one to the character. It would seem contrived and a cop-out to simply extend 21st levels and beyond with more spell slots, more bonus feats, more sneak attack dice, more rage power slots, and so on. Not to mention the fact that class balance will skew more and more as single-classed spellcasters outpace the single-classed vanilla fighters and vanilla rogues.



But...just for fun, here is a 60-level fighter expansion.

Fighter
Some take up arms for glory, wealth, or revenge. Others do battle to prove themselves, to protect others, or because they know nothing else. Still others learn the ways of weaponcraft to hone their bodies in battle and prove their mettle in the forge of war. Lords of the battlefield, fighters are a disparate lot, training with many weapons or just one, perfecting the uses of armor, learning the fighting techniques of exotic masters, and studying the art of combat, all to shape themselves into living weapons. Far more than mere thugs, these skilled warriors reveal the true deadliness of their weapons, turning hunks of metal into arms capable of taming kingdoms, slaughtering monsters, and rousing the hearts of armies. Soldiers, knights, hunters, and artists of war, fighters are unparalleled champions, and woe to those who dare stand against them.

Role: Fighters excel at combat—defeating their enemies, controlling the flow of battle, and surviving such sorties themselves. While their specific weapons and methods grant them a wide variety of tactics, few can match fighters for sheer battle prowess.

Alignment: Any.

Hit Die: d10.

Class Skills
The fighter's class skills are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Table: Fighter
Code:
Level	Base Attack Bonus		Fort	Ref	Will	Special
1st	+1				+2	+0	+0	Bonus feat
2nd	+2				+3	+0	+0	Bonus feat, bravery +1
3rd	+3				+3	+1	+1	Armor training 1
4th	+4				+4	+1	+1	Bonus feat
5th	+5				+4	+1	+1	Weapon training 1
6th	+6 /	+1			+5	+2	+2	Bonus feat, bravery +2
7th	+7 /	+2			+5	+2	+2	Armor training 2
8th	+8 /	+3			+6	+2	+2	Bonus feat
9th	+9 /	+4			+6	+3	+3	Weapon training 2
10th	+10 /	+5			+7	+3	+3	Bonus feat, bravery +3
11th	+11 /	+6 /	+1		+7	+3	+3	Armor training 3
12th	+12 /	+7 /	+2		+8	+4	+4	Bonus feat
13th	+13 /	+8 /	+3		+8	+4	+4	Weapon training 3
14th	+14 /	+9 /	+4		+9	+4	+4	Bonus feat, bravery +4
15th	+15 /	+10 /	+5		+9	+5	+5	Armor training 4
16th	+16 /	+11 /	+6 /	+1	+10	+5	+5	Bonus feat
17th	+17 /	+12 /	+7 /	+2	+10	+5	+5	Weapon training 4
18th	+18 /	+13 /	+8 /	+3	+11	+6	+6	Bonus feat, bravery +5
19th	+19 /	+14 /	+9 /	+4	+11	+6	+6	Armor mastery 5/—
20th	+20 /	+15 /	+10 /	+5	+12	+6	+6	Bonus feat, weapon mastery 1
21st	+21 /	+16 /	+11 /	+6	+12	+7	+7	Weapon training 5
22nd	+22 /	+17 /	+12 /	+7	+13	+7	+7	Bonus feat, bravery +6
23rd	+23 /	+18 /	+13 /	+8	+13	+7	+7	Combat maneuver mastery 1
24th	+24 /	+19 /	+14 /	+9	+14	+8	+8	Bonus feat, shield mastery (light)
25th	+25 /	+20 /	+15 /	+10	+14	+8	+8	Weapon training 6
26th	+26 /	+21 /	+16 /	+11	+15	+8	+8	Bonus feat, bravery +7
27th	+27 /	+22 /	+17 /	+12	+15	+9	+9	Armor mastery 6/—
28th	+28 /	+23 /	+18 /	+13	+16	+9	+9	Bonus feat, weapon mastery 2
29th	+29 /	+24 /	+19 /	+14	+16	+9	+9	Weapon training 7
30th	+30 /	+25 /	+20 /	+15	+17	+10	+10	Bonus feat, bravery +8
31st	+31 /	+26 /	+21 /	+16	+17	+10	+10	Combat maneuver mastery 2
32nd	+32 /	+27 /	+22 /	+17	+18	+10	+10	Bonus feat
33rd	+33 /	+28 /	+23 /	+18	+18	+11	+11	Weapon training 8
34th	+34 /	+29 /	+24 /	+19	+19	+11	+11	Bonus feat, bravery +9
35th	+35 /	+30 /	+25 /	+20	+19	+11	+11	Armor mastery 7/—
36th	+36 /	+31 /	+26 /	+21	+20	+12	+12	Bonus feat, weapon mastery 3
37th	+37 /	+32 /	+27 /	+22	+20	+12	+12	Weapon training 10
38th	+38 /	+33 /	+28 /	+23	+21	+12	+12	Bonus feat, bravery +10
39th	+39 /	+34 /	+29 /	+24	+21	+13	+13	Combat maneuver mastery 3
40th	+40 /	+35 /	+30 /	+25	+22	+13	+13	Bonus feat, shield mastery (heavy)
41st	+41 /	+36 /	+31 /	+26	+22	+13	+13	Weapon training 11
42nd	+42 /	+37 /	+32 /	+27	+23	+14	+14	Bonus feat, bravery +11
43rd	+43 /	+38 /	+33 /	+28	+23	+14	+14	Armor mastery 8/—
44th	+44 /	+39 /	+34 /	+29	+24	+14	+14	Bonus feat, weapon mastery 4
45th	+45 /	+40 /	+35 /	+30	+24	+15	+15	Weapon training 12
46th	+46 /	+41 /	+36 /	+31	+25	+15	+15	Bonus feat, bravery +12
47th	+47 /	+42 /	+37 /	+32	+25	+15	+15	Combat maneuver mastery 4
48th	+48 /	+43 /	+38 /	+33	+26	+16	+16	Bonus feat
49th	+49 /	+44 /	+39 /	+34	+26	+16	+16	Weapon training 13
50th	+50 /	+45 /	+40 /	+35	+27	+16	+16	Bonus feat, bravery +13
51st	+51 /	+46 /	+41 /	+36	+27	+17	+17	Armor mastery 9/—
52nd	+52 /	+47 /	+42 /	+37	+28	+17	+17	Bonus feat, weapon mastery 5
53rd	+53 /	+48 /	+43 /	+38	+28	+17	+17	Weapon training 14
54th	+54 /	+49 /	+44 /	+39	+29	+18	+18	Bonus feat, bravery +14
55th	+55 /	+50 /	+45 /	+40	+29	+18	+18	Combat maneuver mastery 5
56th	+56 /	+51 /	+46 /	+41	+30	+18	+18	Bonus feat, shield mastery (tower)
57th	+57 /	+52 /	+47 /	+42	+30	+19	+19	Weapon training 15
58th	+58 /	+53 /	+48 /	+43	+31	+19	+19	Bonus feat, bravery +15
59th	+59 /	+54 /	+49 /	+44	+31	+19	+19	Armor mastery 10/—
60th	+60 /	+55 /	+50 /	+45	+32	+20	+20	Bonus feat, greater weapon mastery

Class Features
The following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”

Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.

Bravery (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against fear. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.

Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, 15th, and so on), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.

In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.

Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.

Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each (up to a maximum of +5). For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.

A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the fighter's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.

Weapon groups are defined as follows (GMs may add other weapons to these groups, or add entirely new groups):

Axes: bardiche, battleaxe, dwarven waraxe, greataxe, handaxe, heavy pick, hooked axe, knuckle axe, light pick, mattock, orc double axe, pata, and throwing axe

Blades, Heavy: bastard sword, chakram, double chicken saber, double walking stick katana, elven curve blade, falcata, falchion, greatsword, great terbutje, katana, khopesh, longsword, nine-ring broadsword, nodachi, scimitar, scythe, seven-branched sword, shotel, temple sword, terbutje, and two-bladed sword

Blades, Light: bayonet, butterfly sword, dagger, gladius, kama, kerambit, kukri, pata, quadrens, rapier, short sword, sica, sickle, starknife, swordbreaker dagger, sword cane, and wakizashi

Bows: composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, and shortbow

Close: bayonet, brass knuckles, dan bong, emei piercer, fighting fan, gauntlet, heavy shield, iron brush, light shield, madu, mere club, punching dagger, sap, scizore, spiked armor, spiked gauntlet, spiked shield, tekko-kagi, tonfa, unarmed strike, wooden stake, and wushu dart

Crossbows: double crossbow, hand crossbow, heavy crossbow, heavy repeating crossbow, light crossbow, light repeating crossbow, and tube arrow shooter

Double: dire flail, dwarven urgrosh, gnome hooked hammer, orc double axe, quarterstaff, and two-bladed sword

Firearms: all one-handed, two-handed, and siege firearms

Flails: chain spear, dire flail, double chained kama, flail, flying blade, heavy flail, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, meteor hammer, morningstar, nine-section whip, nunchaku, sansetsukon, scorpion whip, spiked chain, urumi, and whip

Hammers: aklys, battle aspergillum, club, greatclub, heavy mace, light hammer, light mace, mere club, taiaha, tetsubo, wahaika, and warhammer

Monk: bo staff, brass knuckles, butterfly sword, cestus, dan bong, double chained kama, double chicken saber, emei piercer, fighting fan, jutte, kama, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, lungshuan tamo, monk's spade, nine-ring broadsword, nine-section whip, nunchaku, quarterstaff, rope dart, sai, sansetsukon, seven-branched sword, shang gou, shuriken, siangham, tiger fork, tonfa, tri-point double-edged sword, unarmed strike, urumi, wushu dart

Natural: unarmed strike and all natural weapons, such as bite, claw, gore, tail, and wing

Polearms: bardiche, bec de corbin, bill, glaive, glaive-guisarme, guisarme, halberd, hooked lance, lucerne hammer, mancatcher, monk's spade, naginata, nodachi, ranseur, and tiger fork

Spears: amentum, boar spear, javelin, harpoon, lance, longspear, pilum, shortspear, sibat, spear, tiger fork, and trident

Thrown: aklys, amentum, atlatl, blowgun, bolas, boomerang, chakram, club, dagger, dart, halfling sling staff, harpoon, javelin, lasso, kestros, light hammer, net, poisoned sand tube, rope dart, shortspear, shuriken, sling, spear, starknife, throwing axe, throwing shield, trident, and wushu dart

Siege Engines: all siege engines


Armor Mastery (Ex): At 19th level, a fighter gains DR 5/— whenever he is wearing armor or using a shield. Every eight levels thereafter (27th, 35th, 43rd, etc.) this DR increases by 1 point.

Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type. Every eight levels thereafter (28th, 36th, 44th, and so on), the fighter may choose one additional weapon to master.

Combat Maneuver Mastery (Ex): At 23rd level, a fighter chooses a combat maneuver, such as grapple or sunder. He gains a +2 bonus to attack rolls and combat maneuver defense when performing or defending against that type of combat maneuver. Every eight levels thereafter (31st, 39th, 47th, and so on), a fighter becomes further trained in another combat maneuver, gaining a +2 bonus on attack rolls and combat maneuver defense related to that combat maneuver. In addition, the bonuses gained for previous combat maneuvers increase by +2 each (up to a maximum of +10). These bonuses stack with those gained from Weapon Training and combat maneuver-associated feats (such as Improved Grapple or Greater Sunder).

Shield Mastery (Ex): At 24th level, a fighter improves his ability to fight while carrying a shield. He is able to treat a light shield like a buckler for purposes of wielding an off-hand weapon or wielding a weapon two-handed (but may still use the shield to bash with). At 40th level, a fighter carrying a heavy shield is able to hold and use other items (other than weapons) in his shield hand. At 56th level, a fighter carrying a tower shield is able to gain total cover on any two adjacent edges of his space.

Greater Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 60th level, a fighter chooses one weapon with which he has Weapon Mastery. The fighter automatically rolls a 20 to hit with that weapon, in addition to the normal benefits gained by Weapon Mastery.
 
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N'raac

First Post
Not 20th.... 12th or 18th.

My reference was more to a general "epic expansion" then your specific house rule to preclude obtaining a capstone ability at 20th level, but I don't think adding a Magic Missile that the fighter has to ditch his armor and shield to cast makes him feel like he gained much from 12th or 18th level either. Of course, Wizard is about as extreme an example as we can get. But if you just take Barbarian or Ranger, how different is that to "more BAB, save bonuses and extra Feats".

I think that an Epic sourcebook would need to take two giant steps back and say "OK, they've made it to the pinnacle of their class - what changes to make characters over 20th level more than just "more powerful characters", but truly EPIC. I don't have the answer, but if there is no answer, then I see no point in an Epic book.

It would be a lot of work. If it were do-able in 8 pages, I wouldn't want to buy it as a hardcover product.
 

Melanos

Explorer
What about something like the Legendary Classes from the "Path of..." series of books from Legends & Lairs? It's kind of like a Prestige Class, but there are ability score increases involved and the powers tend to be more... legendary. There are quests involved in getting the power of the class so it kind of hearkens back to the old Immortals mechanic of needing to fulfill some kind of destiny-quest.
 

For there to be an epic moment, you need to perceive the epic. You can't just just have a slow progression leading to a titan, then all you get is Walmart. Potential difference is where it's at. There needs to be a clear distinction between what makes a titan and what makes a mortal. The easiest way to do this is to manipulate constants. Space, time and the rth dimension.

When you embrace epic, you need to let go of your hand tools and with open arms, reach for the sky!

Cheers,
 

Mad Hamish

First Post
We're doing a campaign that will be going epic and currently we're planning on doing the max 20 level in 1 class.
I've got 2 characters in the campaign, a Teleportion specialist wizard who will be multi-classing to Monk representing the effect of magic on her body (unfortunately has to be the martial artist monk due to alignment) and a fighter who will be picking up either inquisator or Paladin because Iomedae has taken an interest.
So while the class abilities of a 1st level monk or Paladin/Inquisator might not be the most interesting the fluff for them I think is reasonably interesting.
 

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