Ideas for Rogue in Heavy Armor

[Taloras]

If you can, get Weightless armor. removes movement penalty, increases max dex by +2, and decreases ACP by 2 for a +2 bonus.

 

[nittanytbone]

I see two options; the offensively oriented Two Weapon Fighter and the Defensive Oriented Bluffer.

TWF:

For sneak attack to be effective, you really need Two Weapon Fighting. That means at least Dex 15 (Dex 17 for GWTF).

If you're deadset on heavy armor, you'll obviously want full plate mail. It needs to be mithril, both to cut your weight (probably be tough to get str higher than 14) and to boost the maximum allowed dex boost to AC (from 1 to 3, which lets you use all of your 17 dex). The problem is, that mithril heavy armor is expensive.

So, you'd want 17 Dex, Str and Con as high as possible, and then possibly dump mental stats...

Also, a tower shield probably isn't the best bet. It precludes TWF (and thus a lot of damage dealing potential) and has a max dex bonus allowed of +2. If you really want to boost AC as much as possible, you can invest in Improved Shield Bash and a nice magic shield.

Bluffer

You'll want Combat Expertise and Improved Feint, which means Int 13+. This meshes nicely with a skills based rogue.

Dex should be no higher than 12; your full plate armor only allows +1 bonus to dex.

Use a shield or tower shield in your off-hand. In combat, instead of full attacking, feint as a move action and attack as a standard. This precludes a lot of damage dealing potential, however, both from TWF and from iterative attacks.

You might want to take a level in Wizard with this route. You already have good int; It boosts your weak will save, gives you access to Truestrike (which can be used in heavy armor) and several other spells (focus on the ones without somatics), lets you use wands, and gets you a familiar, which can either boost a weak skill or your Fort/Ref saves.

Obviously you'll want a level -- maybe 2 -- of fighter to get the heavy armor proficiency.

 

[nittanytbone]

Also, if somehow you manage to get 17 dex, high str, and good con (not sure what stat generation method is being used), you could use an animated tower shield combined with TWF. The -4 to hit is kind of a drag, but the +5 to AC is nice.

 

[griff_goodbeard]

I don't have my books in front of me but IIRC the Dread Commando Prc reduces the ACP on whatever armor you're wearing. It also nets you a team initive bonus equal to your DC level and a few dice of sudden strike damage.

 

[blargney the second]

I'm using a very similar concept for my new PC - Fighter/Rogue with high social skills. He's got one level of Tactical Fighter from the Miniatures Handbook: it gives the Flanker special ability. Flanker lets you designate any of you adjacent squares as the square you are flanking from, even if it's a wall or occupied.

Incidentally, for social skills it's hard to beat a Changeling Rogue with substitution levels from Races of Eberron. 10+Int ranks per level, social skill mastery, faster check times. Toss Glamered on your armor for best effect!

-blarg

 

[melkorspawn]

I don't have my books in front of me but IIRC the Dread Commando Prc reduces the ACP on whatever armor you're wearing. It also nets you a team initive bonus equal to your DC level and a few dice of sudden strike damage.

Dread Commando is from Heroes of Battle. Every other level your armor check penalty is reduced by 2, plus on odd numbered levels you get sneak attack (OK, Sudden Strike, the bootleg Ninja sneak attack), plus your allies within 30 feet of you get an initiative bonus equal to your class level, and you get Stealthy Movement at 4th level, which raises your Hide and Move Silently speed to full, and lowers the penalty when you're running while sneaking.

It's a great little PrC.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Tangentially, some races make better heavily armed/armored rogues than others.

I don't know what your starting level is, but look around!

Consider the Bugbear (WoTC's Savage Species). A +4 ECL race, they have +4Str, +2Dex & Con, -2 Cha, +3 Natural Armor, Darkvision +4 Move Silently...and their favored class is ROGUE?!

 

[Krelios]

If it's purely for the flanking combat, you might take the alternate fighter from Unearthed Arcana that gets rogue Sneak Attack progression instead of bonus fighter feats. You also get full BAB, d10 HD, and armor proficiencies that way too, but you lose big time on skills, saves, and abilities (like Evasion).

 

[Feldspar]

I thought I'd do something a little different and try to build a rogue character that uses heavy armor in order to increase survivability in toe to toe combat while flanking. Seems crazy, I know, but I thought I'd try my hand at it to see if it can be made to work or not.

A couple of key quotes from the SRD:

• You can’t use [Tumble] if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot.
• "Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).

Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

My idea is specifically for a warforged rogue with the Adamantine Body feat, since the race's +2 CON, and the damage reduction granted by this feat will help in toe-to-toe combat even more. Any other ideas to make this silly concept work?

Playing a Dwarf will also give you +2 CON plus a host of other goodies.

• favored class: Fighter - you're going to be taking at least one level of fighter for the weapon and armor proficiencies
• free proficiency with Dwarven Waraxe and Urgosh - assuming you take that Fighter level
• +2 saving throw bonus vs. poison - I suspect frontliners have more exposure to poison and you don't have a Fighters pure Fort save, this will help
• +2 saving throw bonus vs. spells and spell-like effects - losing Evasion is a bitter to pill to swallow but at least you'll make more saving throws in general
• Darkvision - never a bad thing to have
• Stability bonus - less vulnerable to some combat maneuvers

You'll have to get your damage reduction from Dwarven (Adamantine) Plate

So, can anyone think of any feats, prestige classes, or items that will help offset these penalties? Here's what I've come-up with so far:
* Heavy Armor Optimization and Greater Heavy Armor Optimization increase the armor bonus by 1 each, and reduce the armor check penalties by 1 and 2, respectively, for a total +2 AC and -3 armor check penalty.
* Skill focus and related feats can partially offset armor check penalties, although at a great cost.
* Slick, Shadow, and Silent Moves armor abilities from the DMG offset the penalties to Escape Artist, Hide, and Move Silently checks, respectively.
* The Nimbleness ability from Magic of Faerun reduces armor check penalties by 1, and increases max DEX by 2.

I think I have a better solution to your Armor Check Penalty problems - punt! Forget about trying to be a stealthy scout. Let a monk, ranger, wild shaped druid, familiar, etc handle that role if the party really needs one. For that matter, I'd be willing to argue that the only two must-have required skills for a party's Rogue are Search and Disable Device, both of which are Int based skills unaffected by ACP. Actually, if its an Eberron campaign, then even the trap handler role can be filled by another class - the Artificer.

Spot, Listen, UMD and Open Lock are all useful Rogue skills without an armor check penalty - and for that matter only Open Lock requires Dex. Sure its going to be harder to Tumble, but its a fixed (fairly low) DC, not an opposed check. Just keep throwing skill points at the problem and you'll eventually be good enough. Throw at least 5 points into it so that you have access to the better fighting defensive bonuses. And you also have all the social skills (such wonderful synergy bonuses) to play with as well.

So, forget about Dex, unless you need it for Dodge. Its now a luxury stat. Your two key stats are Con to make up for your lower hit die and Str for attack and damage. Int maybe if you really want to be a skill monkey - that's a good concept: a very intelligent character who makes up for physical shortcomings (str/dex) by wrapping himself in the best armor he can find and hitting his opponents in exactly the place its really going to hurt.

One feat that looks interesting for this character is Karmic Strike. You're standing there in a flanking position, how nice would it be to trade their hit on you for another sneak attack opportunity. Not a good tradeoff (at higher levels) when opponent has a large number of attacks per round, but still interesting.

 

[Gnome]

Thanks, Feldspar; that was a great analysis and a good catch on the limitation to the tumble skill. Using a dwarf to get around that catch is a cool idea. The race fits the image of a more martial rogue, anyway. Here's a sample 28 point build. I'd probably start with rogue for the skill points, then add 1 level of fighter, then switch back to rogue, maybe occasionally throwing extra levels of fighter (maybe 4 over 20 levels to pick-up 3 feats and weapon specialization):

STR 14
DEX 12
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 12